Tom au Kurdistan: english version!

[tomjez]

Your talking about Amediya or Amid (diyarbakir??)

Diri you're wrong, Hewler is very hard to write too

[Vladimir]

The name came from 'Imad ed Dîn Zengî, the Turkmen general who seized the fortress to Hakkari tribes and destroyed it. Then after he rebuild the citadel and it called from his title (or lekeb).

Strange name for a Turk. What's your source?

[Diri]

The name came from 'Imad ed Dîn Zengî, the Turkmen general who seized the fortress to Hakkari tribes and destroyed it. Then after he rebuild the citadel and it called from his title (or lekeb).

Strange name for a Turk. What's your source?

Fairytale... You need to lay of the TURKISH sources...

[Piling]

It is a well-known historical event ! Zengî (1084-1146) was a famous general, as so famous as Nur ed Dîn (his son) or Salah ed Dîn (his lieutenant), and the history of his conquests and Jihad had been written by many contemporary historians of the period... He fought a lot against Kurds from Hakkari who were very powerful... Later Saladin made alliance with them and it was more a tribal agreement than a vassality...

Zengî was the first to unify Syria and Mesopotamia against Crusaders. After him, his son Nur ed Dîn continued the Jihad, and Salah ed Dîn the Kurd achieved the work : at the beginning of the 13th century all the Middle-East was ruled by the Kurdish Ayyubids's family.

The best modern study about this history was Nikita Elisseef book's : ELISSEEF N. Nur ad Din, un grand prince musulman de Syrie au temps des Croisades, Damas, 1967.

I have not the Islamic encyclopedia at home (alas) but monday I could schedule the history and the bibliography of Amadiyya, with original references.

And it is not a STRANGE name. It is not a name in fact, but a kind of honorific title (lakab) as Salah ed Dîn was not his name (which was Yusuf).
The complete name and titulature of Zengî was (take a breath) :

'Imâd ed Dîn Zengî ibn Qasîm ed Dewla Aqsunqur

He was the son of a Turkish officer of the Seljuk Malikshah, sultan of Iran. And a this time, Arab names (then muslim) were common and very fashionable for high ranked princes.

Concerning the character, Zengî was short, with a dark and ugly face and had lost one eye. He was cruel but a very good general.


Tom : I talk about Amadiyya.
For Amid, it is another story. Amid or Amida is the ancient name of the city, I have forgotten the origin of this name (Urartian ? Armenian ?) but it is a very ancient city.

Diyar Bakr was, until the 18th century the name of the region. All the land of Jezireh-Northern Syria was divided in 3 parts : Diyar Mudar, Diyar Rabi' and Diyar Bakr. It is very lately that the city took the name of its region.

Concerning the city of Arbailu it is really an Assyrian name, but I don't believe that Christians in Kurdistan had all for grand-father Assyrian kings...

And Diri : Hakkari's name is not offended, even for Kurdish nationalist, for it came from the great Hakkari tribe who was very powerful during all the Middle Ages... So when Turks changed the name of Colemerg by Hakkari they just praised historical Kurds (but unwillingly I guessed). Then the one which could refuse the name of Hakkari should be the Christians of the region, who were entirely massacred during the genocide in 1917-1918. Before that, the mountains of Hakkari were half Kurdish half Suryani...

[tomjez]

Anyway Kurds should maybe accept that their country was many time part of Turkish or Persan empires...Seljuk, Ak koyunly, Osman empire...I'm not saying that out of turkish nationalism, just to establish historic truth. Saying that a turk conquered Amidya is not being victim of turkish propaganda, anyway they are not interested in pre republican history !

[Diri]

It is a well-known historical event ! Zengî (1084-1146) was a famous general, as so famous as Nur ed Dîn (his son) or Salah ed Dîn (his lieutenant), and the history of his conquests and Jihad had been written by many contemporary historians of the period... He fought a lot against Kurds from Hakkari who were very powerful... Later Saladin made alliance with them and it was more a tribal agreement than a vassality...

Zengî was the first to unify Syria and Mesopotamia against Crusaders. After him, his son Nur ed Dîn continued the Jihad, and Salah ed Dîn the Kurd achieved the work : at the beginning of the 13th century all the Middle-East was ruled by the Kurdish Ayyubids's family.

The best modern study about this history was Nikita Elisseef book's : ELISSEEF N. Nur ad Din, un grand prince musulman de Syrie au temps des Croisades, Damas, 1967.

I have not the Islamic encyclopedia at home (alas) but monday I could schedule the history and the bibliography of Amadiyya, with original references.

And it is not a STRANGE name. It is not a name in fact, but a kind of honorific title (lakab) as Salah ed Dîn was not his name (which was Yusuf).
The complete name and titulature of Zengî was (take a breath) :

'Imâd ed Dîn Zengî ibn Qasîm ed Dewla Aqsunqur

He was the son of a Turkish officer of the Seljuk Malikshah, sultan of Iran. And a this time, Arab names (then muslim) were common and very fashionable for high ranked princes.

Concerning the character, Zengî was short, with a dark and ugly face and had lost one eye. He was cruel but a very good general.


Tom : I talk about Amadiyya.
For Amid, it is another story. Amid or Amida is the ancient name of the city, I have forgotten the origin of this name (Urartian ? Armenian ?) but it is a very ancient city.

Diyar Bakr was, until the 18th century the name of the region. All the land of Jezireh-Northern Syria was divided in 3 parts : Diyar Mudar, Diyar Rabi' and Diyar Bakr. It is very lately that the city took the name of its region.

Concerning the city of Arbailu it is really an Assyrian name, but I don't believe that Christians in Kurdistan had all for grand-father Assyrian kings...

And Diri : Hakkari's name is not offended, even for Kurdish nationalist, for it came from the great Hakkari tribe who was very powerful during all the Middle Ages... So when Turks changed the name of Colemerg by Hakkari they just praised historical Kurds (but unwillingly I guessed). Then the one which could refuse the name of Hakkari should be the Christians of the region, who were entirely massacred during the genocide in 1917-1918. Before that, the mountains of Hakkari were half Kurdish half Suryani...

Okey let's just get some things straight - Selaheddîn can not be compared to a REGIONAL person...

And I AM from Colemêrg - I know VERY well what I and my eshiret - and ALL the surrounding ashirets call it: COLEMÊRG... So please - don't bother lecturing...

And by the way - the Assyrians fled to Colemêrg in 12-1300 because of the Mongolians(Turkic peoples) who came in from Iran in the East and drow the Assyrians to the mountains of KURDISTAN... This does however not make Colemêrg part of Assyria - just as Nineveh will NEVER be part of Kurdistan...


TOM - We never said we weren't under Turkish, Persian or Arab rule... ON THE CONTRARY - we have been under THEIR rule for hundreds of years - but not DIRECTLY - the Ashiret has always been a buffer against foreign influence - because they have been carefull to preserve Kurdish culture - as that was the ONLY way they had control over the people...

The Hakkarî tribe is another matter and out of the question - Assyrians by the way LIKE the name Hakkari and call it by this name... The Assyrians were forced to move again this time to Khabur in Syrian Kurdistan - and they had stayed in Colemêrg for ca 700 years...

The mountains are Kurdish - and the plains are Assyrian!

[Piling]

By the way, there are not anymore Suryanis in Hakkari and I doubt that their sons are ready to come back in Hakkari mountains, where life is so hard for American-borned people... Diaspora lives in a dream, and they make a virtual Assyria, which was not a country but an Empire, disappeared in the last millenium BC... But Aina.org isa bunch of people living physically in Chivago or elsewhere and who mentally have built a "virtuel Assyria", as said to me a Christian from Zakho.

It is the same thing for Armenians. Most of them in France talked about a great Armenia, from Van to Urfa.... But a few few people among them had chosen to live in the Armenian state after independance.

[tomjez]

Well same analysis...I'm repeating that for one month: diasporas don't know a sh...!!!!!!!!!!!! They're living in virtual world. Waw I'm sure turks are afraid of the great alliance between kurds and armenians in L.A. I'm sure they're getting prepared for the great legions of australians greek. And population in western armenia are for sure packing what they have to make room for the armenians from france coming to resettle Erzurum.

Fuck this is a kurdish forum, and there are only crazy armenian and assyrians. All I'm learning is something I already knew: diasporas are all mad.

[Vladimir]

There are not much people here.

[tomjez]

Yes indeed. But assyrians and armenians should create their own forums instead of making propagand here

[Vladimir]

I can also post something nice about the discrimination of the friend of Kurdistan, Armenia.. against Kurds and Muslims.. after their conflict with Azerijbajann..

[tomjez]

No no no, armenians are pure holy victims, they never did a thing wrong