"Turkiye": the reality...

[tomjez]

ok what do you call kebab? A greasy döner in a dry bread?

I'm talking a plate of good meat in a nice restaurant in Istanbul, Bursa, even in Diyarbakir I had some amazing meat...

Fistikli kebab is to die for, I think it's from Antep...

[Piling]

ok what do you call kebab? A greasy döner in a dry bread?

Yeah.

[tomjez]

LOL

ok but "kebab" stands for most of the meat dishes...

if you take kebab in the french acceptation of the word, yeah, it sucks!

[Vladimir]

CAN WE SPLIT UP THIS TOPIC LOL!

I love Iskender DÖNER Kebab!! TURKISH WAY!



I also love that Arabic/Kurdish/Turkish icecream. It's made in Xarput (Elazig) and Meleti (Malatya). What's the name of that .

[Kurd delal in]

Zurderer,

You do have a name and you are an individual like me and like any other living being. But with regard to the Kurds, your individuality disappears and you become THE STATE.

You see, your state has occupied not only Kurdistan but also your own mind. It is therefore not you speaking but the Turkish state. Your only job is to defend your own state through your words and actions. You may think that you have thoughs of your own but thatçs not the case. Your thoughts are given to you.

Of course, any person with self-respect would and should object to this accusation. But your objections are in vain because you cannot see the fact that you are a servent of the state, an agent of the Turkish state. Your duty is to prolong the life of the Turkish state. You may even think that tou are a "democrat with many Kurdish friends" but that means nothing. Even your "friendship" is false as far as the "Kurdish question" is concerned. The only way you can show your respect to the Kurds is by getting out of their land. But your are instead trying to maintain your rule in Kurdistan. And therefore your are nothing but the Turkish state or the agent of that state.

How are you being the Turkish state?

By exactly doing what you are doing now.

You argue that the state is not Turkish, meaning that it is also the Kurds´ state. Would a Kurdish state ban the Kurdish language? Would a Kurdish state be called TURKey? Would a Kurdish state divide Kurdistan and support other occupation forces to maintain their rule in the Kurds´ land?

Would a Kurdish state teach TURKISH history to the Kurdish children and speak of them only in terms of "terrorists" "seperatists" and "primitives"?

Surely, a Kurdish state would promote Kurdish culture, literature and such? How come Ehmedê Xanî is unheard of in TURKey?

How come the popular idea is that there is no Kurdish language but a mixture of Arabic Persian and Turkish?

Isn´t that the result of 85 year´s Turkish warfare against the Kurds?

You object to the argumant that the Turkish state has tried to EXTINGUISH the Kurds. You say you´d rather call it assimilation. And you say that´s not the Turkish policy anymore.

Let me ask you again, because you seem to want to paint a reality that is false. Why ban the Kurdish language, which is one of the main components of the Kurdish identity? Why attack Kurdish history and propagate that there is no such a thing? Why not teach the Kurdish children their culture, history etc?

Every sensible person with some intelligance will see that through such policies the Turkish state wanted to wipe out Kurdishness from the map of humanity. Call it assimilation, you. Turkification. Killing the Kurd by turning him into a Turk.

It is genocide!

What difference does it make whom wrote the Turkish anthem? One of those time-waster arguments. It is Turkish. period. There is a KURDISH national anthem. There is a KURDISH flagg. We exist and we are not Turks. Our land is Kurdistan, not "Turkey". "Turkey" is in fact nothing but division and occupation of Kurdistan and other peoples´ lands.

Whatever you name, you are nothing but the Turkish state itself. You need to realise that first, before anything else.

Your reply contain a lot but essentially they are nothing but advocating the Turkish state´s aims and objections.

The Kurdish response to you, the Turkish state, is final: you are unlawfully in my land and you want to kill me. You will out because I have no intention to die.

The rest of the discussion is academic and when with you, the occupier of my land, it is only waste of time. My time.

I hope you take none of these "personally" as to me this is a matter of life and death of a nation. The Turkish state´s true face is in the open. Your mission is to cover that face. Your mission is regretable, unfortunate.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Ps. I am taking that you are not the person that used faul language towards me. I can have a limited time for the time-wasters but not a single second for time-wasters with faul language.

[heval]

Zurderer,

You do have a name and you are an individual like me and like any other living being. But with regard to the Kurds, your individuality disappears and you become THE STATE...

...I hope you take none of these "personally" as to me this is a matter of life and death of a nation. The Turkish state´s true face is in the open. Your mission is to cover that face. Your mission is regretable, unfortunate.

Her Bijî, Kurd delal in. Dest xwesh.

[zurderer]

You do have a name and you are an individual like me and like any other living being. But with regard to the Kurds, your individuality disappears and you become THE STATE.


You see, your state has occupied not only Kurdistan but also your own mind. It is therefore not you speaking but the Turkish state. Your only job is to defend your own state through your words and actions. You may think that you have thoughs of your own but thatçs not the case. Your thoughts are given to you.

realy? I am not aware of it, I prefer to become myself not state. You have a weird idea about that you are only one who have some problem with state. or should I kill some innocent people too?

by the way, do you sure your thought are yours? are you from Turkey? Interestingly when Turkey is unjust to Turkey Kurds, other kurds outside of Turkey hate more from Turkey.

Of course, any person with self-respect would and should object to this accusation. But your objections are in vain because you cannot see the fact that you are a servent of the state, an agent of the Turkish state

It looks like your ideas are unchangable.

Your duty is to prolong the life of the Turkish state.

Turkey state, not Turkish one.

You may even think that tou are a "democrat with many Kurdish friends" but that means nothing.

LOL, you only think democrats have kurdish friends? yes having kurdish friend means nothing, more than 90% of turkey have kurdish friend.

even your "friendship" is false as far as the "Kurdish question" is concerned.

what is relation between two people is only relation between them. Not relation between nation, weird. So acording to you, I cannot have kurdish friends.

The only way you can show your respect to the Kurds is by getting out of their land.

so what about 10 million kurd? should we exile this kurds too? what about turkish kurdish cities?

your are instead trying to maintain your rule in Kurdistan. And therefore your are nothing but the Turkish state or the agent of that state.

Not excatly, Infact I think like you, a referendum should be made, people and cities who dont want to live in Turkey, should left turkey, but you did not liked this ideas too.

Because you know, not much cities will prefered to leave turkey, and I am not sure, 10 million people leave from Turkish lands.

You argue that the state is not Turkish, meaning that it is also the Kurds´ state.

Well, If it is kurdish, why our parliment have a lot non-turkish. I am sure kurds have more than their share at parliment.

Would a Kurdish state ban the Kurdish language?

Even Turkey was ruled by nationalists, this ban made after a military coup, and It was abolished by a kurdish pm. Turgut Özal.

Would a Kurdish state be called TURKey?

Turkey is not invented by Turks, but europeans called it as Turkey, but I agree, kurdistan name should be used more.

Would a Kurdish state divide Kurdistan and support other occupation forces to maintain their rule in the Kurds´ land?

Well, Turkey not divided kurdistan, dont you have any idea about history?

Would a Kurdish state teach TURKISH history to the Kurdish children and speak of them only in terms of "terrorists" "seperatists" and "primitives"?

I agree about turkish history,but not agree about "terrorists" "seperatists" and "primitives".or do you want to say me, all kurds are pkk? It is you who call them terrorist.Pkk was not only called terrorist by Turkey, but all world.

How come the popular idea is that there is no Kurdish language but a mixture of Arabic Persian and Turkish?

That is not a popular idea but a fasist idea, most people have no idea about what is kurdish. Infact most of them think, there is one kurdish langauge, they are not even aware of zazas are different ethnic.

Isn´t that the result of 85 year´s Turkish warfare against the Kurds?

well, that land were never happily land, but war against kurd is a little exagerated, be sure turks killed much more turks than kurds.

You object to the argumant that the Turkish state has tried to EXTINGUISH the Kurds. You say you´d rather call it assimilation. And you say that´s not the Turkish policy anymore.

No It is not, without pkk action, It wont become too. True not everything is fine, but It is quicky changing.

false. Why ban the Kurdish language, which is one of the main components of the Kurdish identity?

no more, did you ever go some land and north kurdistan? I went malatya,(It is not a kurdish land, but there is some kurdish people at there) and IIt was not difficult to find a lot kurdish song.

Also you can find some kurdish song at Tv.

Why attack Kurdish history and propagate that there is no such a thing?

Kurdish history is ignored, not attacked.

Why not teach the Kurdish children their culture, history etc?

maybe reason is same with not teaching arabish, georgian langauge or bosnian langauge.

It is genocide!

langauge genocide?

What difference does it make whom wrote the Turkish anthem? One of those time-waster arguments. It is Turkish. period.

show me one word of "Turk" at Turkey national anthem.

There is a KURDISH national anthem. There is a KURDISH flagg. We exist and we are not Turks.

Well, wont argue.

Our land is Kurdistan, not "Turkey".

10 million kurd's land is Turkey.(more than 50% of turkey kurds)

"Turkey" is in fact nothing but division and occupation of Kurdistan and other peoples´ lands.

Kurdistan is nothing more than stolen armenian lands. Like it? 1000 year is enough for owning a land. Anyway, tomjez have more right over istanbul, than a greek who live at greece, or a turk who live at USA. Land belongs who live over it.

So If you want to give our land to greeks, you should give your land to armenians.

Whatever you name, you are nothing but the Turkish state itself. You need to realise that first, before anything else.

Ok PKK!

The Kurdish response to you, the Turkish state, is final: you are unlawfully in my land and you want to kill me. You will out because I have no intention to die.

do you live in north kurdistan or not? be sure If a referandum would made, noone listen you If you dont live there. So why do you think we should listen you If you are not living at north kurdistan?

I hope you take none of these "personally" as to me this is a matter of life and death of a nation. The Turkish state´s true face is in the open. Your mission is to cover that face. Your mission is regretable, unfortunate.

No I am not taking it personaly, It is turkish state you talk:)

Infact If you dont even like from turks who want referandum at kurdsh lands, you will not like any turks.

dont you trust kurds at Turkey? I understand you, DTP only got 2 million vote, and more than 50% of this votes comes from Turkish land.(If a division becomes most probably they wont for division.Istanbul is a difficult city to leave) You respect your people preference less than me.

[tomjez]

Maras dondurma! From "karaman"maras....it's awesome!

Zurderer, you're just turning around your own tail, it's quite boring.

so since tûrgüt özal unbanned kurdish, there have been no pb? everything is perfect?

it will take generations before some turks can give up this "we're perfect, peope are mean to us" ideas...

[zurderer]

so since tûrgüt özal unbanned kurdish, there have been no pb? everything is perfect?

did I ever say something like this? But It is not as bad as that we are simply occupying kurdish lands, and killing them.

[Kurd delal in]

Good afternoon everybody,

Zurderer,

It is clear that you are defending a position. But excatly what position that is is not very clear. You say "yes, there are some problems, but..." It is that "but" that makes you to the agent of the Turkish state. The "but" is a condition, a justification of the Turkish presence in Kurdistan. You have no rightful justification for being in Kurdistan. Why? Because it is without the consent of the Kurdish people.

It is without the consent of the Armenian, Assyrian and other people's too. So before you come and decide what is Kurdish, what is Armenian and what is Assyrian, you have to realise WHAT IS NOT YOURS. Understand? Kurdistan (or call it x-istan, doesn't matter) is not YOURS.

Typical Turkish fox-like mentality. As long as you are in Kurdistan, you are stealing our precious time by having this discussion. Why? Because first you legally (but illegitimately) guarantee you presence in Kurdistan. Thereafter, you start discussing issues and every moment that passes by, your presence is further strenghtened in Kurdistan. So you have not only stealing our space, you are stealing our time too.

You are using time only to strenghten you presence in Kurdistan. And then you will come and talk about "the preferences of the Kurdish people". How cunny!

You are talking about "how much I hate the Turks". Well, I have more love in a hair-straw of mine then you can find in the entire body of yourself, the Turkish people and the Turkish state all together.

But as Tina Turner so rightly said: what has love to do with it? You are killing me slowly and not so gently and you want me to "love" you. Again, how cunny. How clever. That's your true face.

The Kurds in Istanbul. An example of you stealing our space. And you seem to be saying that Istanbul is much more beatiful then Kurdistan. I am sure that's why 100.000s of people left their livelihood or life and moved to cities like Istanbul: for the beauty of it!

You don't seem to be of a very political mind.

1- Kurdistan is the Kurdish land and the Kurdish struggle for freedom is in fact establishing the Kurdish government on that land.

2- With regard to the Kurds in Istanbul and other Turkish cities, many of them will want to go back to their land. I could spend pages to tell you how and why, but I won't. Partly because all you do is playing with words and not wanting to get to the truth.

3- And you also explain the attacks on Kurdish history and language by refering to "not teaching arabish, georgian langauge or bosnian langauge". Again, an example of your distorting mentality and cunningsness. The Kurds are not refugess that have come to "Turkey" from elsewhere. They are on their own land and that land is being occupied by the Turks, (Arabs and Persians). The Turkish state got rid of the Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks because they were living on their land. The very land that the Turks needed to establish their OWN state. So don't compare the Kurds with the Bosnians, who are refugees. the Kurds are the inhabitants of the land.

4- Having said that, what about the Kurds in Istanbul, you ask. Yes, I am sure many of them have already established a life there and there is no reason for them to move back to Kurdistan. But they are still Kurds and their children should be able to have some kind of Kurdish education in Istanbul; be able to protect and develop their culture; etc etc etc. So the Kurd in Istanbul would enjoy his MINORTIY RIGHTS, as the Kurds in Istanbul are a minority, like the Turks in Germany. The Kurds in Kurdistan are not. A democratic Turkish state would protect the Kurdish minority in Istanbul as a democratic Kurdish state would protect the Turkish minority in Kurdistan. That's politics.

But what are you doing? You are using the consequences of the Turkish colonialism in Kurdistan as an excuse to maintain the system.

If a Kurdish person cannot use his/her language, that's because of the attacks of the Turkish sate on Kurdish identity, most notably the Kurdish language. It is not an argument for maintaining the colonial system but an argument for abolishing it. It is a human tragedy that a person cannot speak his/her language. I acknolwedge that tragedy whereas you use it as an argument for protecting the Turkish rule in Kurdistan.

The attacks on Kurdish language and identity in general started in 1923 with the establishment of the Trukish state.

Notice. That state wanted to create a Turkish nation and Turkify everybody living under Turkish dominance. That has clearly always been the Turkish policy. So it is not about some military coups or this or that. The Turkish state is racist because it is based on the extermination of non-Turkic peoples. So it is not only the Kurdish child that is the victim, but also the "Laz". He is victim too because he is forced to educate himself in Trukish, for example.

What you are doing is emposing on us the idea of "Turkiye"... That idea is denial of the Kurds and Kurdistan. That's why I cannot accept it as a Kurd.

And that's why you are an agent of the Turkish state: You are arguing for the occupation of Kurdistan by denying that it is occupied. It is occupied simply because the Kurd in Kurdistan is forced to sing a foreign national anthem under a foreign flagg.

By the way, the Kurds in the Turkish parliament are not representative of Kurdish interests but there to advance their own personal interests. That's why they have done nothing (excluding individual MPs of course) to defend and protect Kurdish national rights. But still, I am sure most of them would change their colour when they realise that they don't have to accept the turkish conditions, forced on them by the military. So it is fear that puts the Kurd in the Turkish parliament, not some sense of social duty. But things will change as they are doing now.

Why are things changing? Because the world is changing and the Turkish state is alone and is forced to change. They want to change according to their own ideas, but they will change nevertheless and when the terror of Turkish army is gone, oh my goodness, then you will see the Kurds...

Looking forward to it all...

[heval]

NEWSFLASH:

And Turkey's oppressive campaign continues...

57 Children Still Under Arrest in Diyarbakir

April 10, 2006

Bianet (Diyarbakir) - Of the 91 children arrested in Diyarbakir on charges of "inciting and provoking the people to rebellion, resentment and hostility", 34 have been released. Children rights organisations have started action to free all children."

Of the 91 children placed under arrest on life-time imprisonment charges of "violating the integrity of the state" , "inciting and provoking the people to rebellion, resentment and hostility", 34 have been released after an appeal by the Diyarbakir Bar Association Children's Rights Centre. But 57 children are still under arrest and in prison.

As there is no child detention centre in Diyarbakir, the children are being held at the same place as adults at the Diyarbakir E-Type Prison.

[heval]

News update: Turkey to kick out the Human Rights Watch Researcher

Turkey to deport British human rights researcher
Wed Apr 12, 2006 09:14 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Turkish police have detained a British researcher for New York-based Human Rights Watch for alleged visa violations and intend to deport him shortly, the rights group said on Wednesday.

The researcher, Jonathan Sugden, was probing alleged abuses in the predominately Kurdish southeast of the country that involved Turkish police and government-armed local defense units, Human Rights Watch said in a statement.

"The desire to cover up human rights abuses is evidently still very strong, despite recent moves toward more accountability in Turkey's bid for membership in the European Union," said Holly Cartner, the group's Europe and Central Asia director.

Sugden was detained in the southeastern town of Bingol on Wednesday and taken to Istanbul, where he is expected to spend the night in police custody before being deported to London on Thursday, Cartner said.

Sugden is a fluent Turkish speaker with some 15 years of experience monitoring human rights in Turkey.

The Turkish authorities said he did not have a valid authorization to be carrying out human rights work in Turkey and was in the country on a tourist visa, Cartner said.

But she said Sugden had traveled to Turkey repeatedly on such a visa, with the knowledge of Turkish authorities and without being detained.

"This really isn't about the visa at all. This is about the authorities not wanting to let us document the abuses there," Cartner said.

Dozens of people have been killed in Turkey's southeast over the past month, both in clashes between rebels and the security forces and in street protests involving Kurdish civilians.