Abdullah Öcelan

[cheryl]

Nistiman! i hope you are well.

i see you have pushed the door open and now we can all walk in.

as you may know it is a short work week here in the states, and therefore a bit busier. i will reply to your comments more fully by the end of the week because i think that your main point is an important one.

let me throw out one thing that you have already mentioned, and it is something that my mind always comes back to when the issue of ocalan/PKK, and it is this: the good kurd/bad kurd dichotomy. certainly you are familiar with this, especially from kevin mckiernan's documentary which, i suppose, coined the phrase.

the adjectives employed here, "good" and "bad," are used by the west, and the us in particular, because of american national interests (self-interest). we might instead employ the terms "useful" (substitute for "good") and "problematic" (substitute for "bad") in order to reflect the use to which us policies and relationships view kurds.

i mean, national interests do not see kurds as a people (i.e. nation) that should also have the rights to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" because if this were so, there would be no good/useful vs. bad/problematic split.

if the core values of democracy are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and if this is what the us should properly represent and offer to the world and is willing to go to war in order to ensure the spread of these values among those who have for so long been wrongfully deprived of them, then we have a serious problem--and obviously we do have.

i also think something to consider is the fact that PKK has, so far in my opinion, been the one organization that has done the most to foster pan-kurdish unity. . . if we consider that it has had members from all parts of kurdistan.

maybe that is one of the great dangers that PKK poses. . . that it is the latest in a linear progression of kurdish unity and/or nationalism.

but i must think more. . . because there have been too many news leaks from the south, such as the detention of dr. qadir, firing on protestors, corruption stories. . . and i think i need to try to mesh all of this together because of the reasons you give for the western judgement of ocalan and PKK as terrorist.

i shall return to this soon.

[Vladimir]

heval, you are right about the things talabanî has been saying, yet very few complain about talabanî.

it is also interesting to note that ocalan says things very similar to what ibrahim tatlises says. . . but not with the same reaction.

There have been a lot of complaints about Talabani. More about Talabani then Ocalan. ..

Anyway Ocalan is in prison. He can't do nothing.. he is in prison.. for a lot of years. Come with a new Kurdish leader.. Ocalan's role is over. Demonstrating for apo on streets don't get you anywhere.

[Vladimir]

However, if you ask PKK supporters, they would likely give different answers as to why Ocalan has earned the enmity of the West, such as:
1. - he's an ideologue who does not support the status quo and cannot be 'manipulated' by the interests of foreign powers (he does not forsake the interests of Kurds)
2. - he represents a way of life that is antithetical to the materialistic way of life epitomized in Western society - for example... his search for 'natural man' stripped of his ties to society and more in tune with humanity simpliciter
3. - in a way, he is seen as an "alternative" to the very essence of the kind of superficial lifestyle (bound to crude economics and self-interest) exemplified in the West
4. - all these combined make him the kind of leader one wishes to avoid in supporting...


[/i]

ok.. Nistiman.. maybe you listened too much to propaganda.

1. "Ocalan not manipulated, doesn't forsake interest of Kurds"

a. Ocalan worked together with Saddam/Baathist for a little time
b. PKK worked with Iran for some time
c. Ocalan worked together with Bashar Al Assad. Nothing changed for the Kurds in West-Kurdistan.. only difference is.. that they had to give thousands of Kurds as peshmerga's. (FORCED)

So this the biggest lie! Ocalan betrayed the Kurds of WEst-Kurdistan. So stop making that PKK argument.

2. He searches for the "natural man".. this is just some fantasy... nothing more. Can you define the "natural man".. ..? You want all Kurds to go work on the farm? Something like Pol Pot did?

3. Every economy/nation goes for self-interest. Öcalan was also going for self-interest when he was in Assad's palace. He portrays himself as a hero.. as a god. .. Isn't this self-interest?

[Nistiman]

Now I may be over intellectualizing this but I would like to know whether the PKK, as it is, -informed by an Apoist ideology - can *ever* be an ally of the West. The US would never allow a Communist state to exist nor an Islamic one.

What I mean by natural man and by rejecting 'self-interest' goes to the core of how the West views man and his relation to political society.

Apo(ism), along with Communism and even Islam as well as Nationalistic ideologies (I'm not sure whether Apoism would qualify), share a common thread - they view man foremost as a political animal - tied to the political community of which he is a part of. This inevitably involves a sacrifice of certain individual freedoms for the sake of the 'common good'. And that is why it is easy to mistake certain aspects of the PKK as dictatorial and authoritarian.

The West on the other hand, while it owes its foundation to this concept ( from Plato all the way to Cicero, it was accepted that man was a political animal) has rejected it. Starting from Machiavelli, but most importantly Hobbes and Locke, view the natural state of man as 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short'. The only reason man would want to join civil society, in their opinion, is to get security for their person and/or protection for their property. In this perspective, any limiting of individual freedoms beyond what is necessary is seen as transgressing the autonomy of man.

So, it is in this aspect that I say the way of life proposed by the PKK and lived by its cadres is fundamentally different than a Western conception and may be antithetical to it...

[tomjez]

So, it is in this aspect that I say the way of life proposed by the PKK and lived by its cadres is fundamentally different than a Western conception and may be antithetical to it...

No right to love

No right to have friends

You must cut every link to your family

No right to think by yourself


INDEED, antithetical!

[Vladimir]

You can't survive if you don't have allies. So what you are saying, that the PKK can never win.. so following the PKK is a suicidal mission.

[Piling]

No right to love

No right to have friends

You must cut every link to your family

No right to think by yourself

very far from the Kurdish way of life too, but for Öcalan Kurdish way of life is "Black fascist feodal ideology traitor to Revolution of the NEW MAN (He), etc".

[Nistiman]

No right to love

No right to have friends

You must cut every link to your family

No right to think by yourself

tomjez. there you again analyzing the PKK from the most crudest of perspectives.

No right to love??? Do you mean to criticize why PKK cadres can't marry and live in houses with white picket fences and have 2.2 children and drive a Dodge minivan? I haven't heard of anyone putting shackles on anyone's heart -- there are different types of love. There is a love of homeland, love of freedom, love of truth, love of independence, and yes, even erotic love, but you are being very superficial if you say all these loves must be conflated to a marriage vow. You apparently stand for "tolerance" then why aren't you tolerant of those whose loves are different, and possibly even greater, than yours?

No right to have friends??? I don't understand where you are coming from when you say this? Or do you get upset that someone might not want to befriend just anybody for the sake of 'fun' and they may have certain standards they expect from their friends?

You must cut every link from your family??? Again, more propaganda. You may choose to live among your comrades but this doesn't mean you lose all links with your family. You also enlarge your conception of family to include not just your own but all Kurdish mothers and fathers...

No right to think by yourself... Thinking for oneself is a Feat no matter where you are. Do you believe you think freely? Just because you get affected by apparently more sources rather than just one doesn't mean your thinking is any less fettered.

Had you been capable of critical thinking you could've come up with criticisms that weren't just a re-hash of propaganda.

[Piling]

Are you unaware of the PKK rules ? Much members had been executed because they were falle in love each others and/or had had sexual relations. And even friendship was suspect, because any kind of personnal feeling was a treason to the cause. Only the Great Leader has the right. They had even killed pregnant girls...

And in Bremen, some years ago, 2 invalid members, a man and a girl had been executed by a Death commando, just becaus ethey were in love each others ! the poor ppl could not walk, they have been wounded in the war, but they were guilty to be in love ! The girl has been strangled, and they crushed the man's head with a car.

The commando was led by a woman... everybody know that the PKK liberate female condition, even woman now has the right to become a killer...

The family of these ppl was very engaged in the party, all of their children have fought, but it was not enough for having pity...

Fortunaltely, this affair made great noise, and the killer were arrested and judged in Germany.

It is ONE of the reason for which Germany considered the PKK as a terrorist movement...

[Diri]

The PKK is still in it's ideology Marxist... And that is SAD!

There is NO ROOM FOR MARXISM in KURDISH CULTURE...

[Piling]

here is NO ROOM FOR MARXISM in KURDISH CULTURE..

I wonder in which culture there is a room for marxism... is there a marxist culture ?

[tomjez]

Had you been capable of critical thinking you could've come up with criticisms that weren't just a re-hash of propaganda.

Any criticism against that party you will say "propaganda"

As Pilling proved you this rules are FACTS, and I did not hear about them thanks to "turkish medias" (who don't know about it) but thanks to dissident, people who suffered from them

here is a love of homeland, love of freedom, love of truth, love of independence

TRUTH??????

Do you mean to criticize why PKK cadres can't marry and live in houses with white picket fences and have 2.2 children and drive a Dodge minivan?

Well in South Kurdistan it seems to be their dream, and I don't think any kurd (nor turk) would refuse such an opportunity.

then why aren't you tolerant of those whose loves are different, and possibly even greater, than yours?

You're crazy!!!!!! I'm talking about forcing people to give up any personal emotions or feelings, and you say "I'm not tolerant!"

Is your dream a free kurdistan populated with brainless robots unable to have feelings, to laugh, because they are "unworthy" of holy apo (HE said kurds were unworthy of him)?

[cheryl]

you know, all of these reactionary replies to perfectly acceptable questions by Nistiman are very interesting. one may ask "why is Nistiman so apparently hated by outsiders?" and this is not the first time this has happened.

i have had a fairly involved discussion over the question of PKK with tomjez and did not draw such responses. i posted a long reply in support of the kurdish right to armed liberation and did not get such responses. this causes me to wonder what if i had a different user name? what if my user name were "serhildan" or "welat" or "ronahî" (all the PKK experts should remember that one), or (omg!) "zilan?" i have already been characterized thusly: "you are a stupid kurd and I know you are from Turkey" on this forum (a characterization which i consider to be a magnificent honor), so what if i had a PKK-sounding user name and displayed my PKK sympathies and everyone believed i were bakurî? would i also get such reactionary replies to perfectly good and acceptable questions?

perhaps this is part of that which Nistiman purposely avoided so far, the question of why kurds might be bothered by ocalan or PKK. . . ? although i believe that this, too, is a very interesting and legitimate matter of discussion.

Vladimir, i could come along and post all day about talabanî and i would get no reaction like the one i would get, and Nistiman does get, if i, instead, came along and posted all day about ocalan. also, if ocalan is in prison, if his role is over and he can do nothing, why the reaction? if demonstrating for apo on the streets gets one nowhere, why the reaction? if all of it is finished and relegated to the trashcan of history, why is PKK still on "The List?"

i think you also missed the point that Nistiman was making on the statements she posted about ocalan. she stated quite clearly what PKK supporters might say about the reason ocalan has drawn the enmity of the west. do you disagree that PKK supporters might, in fact, make those kinds of arguments to explain the hatred directed at ocalan?

you further state that:

a. Ocalan worked together with Saddam/Baathist for a little time

so did KDP. so did PUK. so what?

b. PKK worked with Iran for some time

so did and, apparently so does, PUK. not to mention the fact that KDP has worked for sometime with ankara and still does. as regards this ankara/KDP relationship, PKK never objected to KDPs practical reasons for the relationship, i.e. keeping the border open to allow humanitarian aid and goods to flow into kurdistan bashur after the gulf war. PKK objected to the relationship when it engaged in joint military operations against PKK.

c. Ocalan worked together with Bashar Al Assad. Nothing changed for the Kurds in West-Kurdistan.. only difference is.. that they had to give thousands of Kurds as peshmerga's. (FORCED)

again, KDP also worked within rojava with the go-ahead from syria. this is hardly different than your statement that ocalan worked with the saddam regime for a time. as for "forcing" the rojavayî to supply gerîlas, do you have a source for that? because the same propaganda was made against PKK by the turkish government and, although at first this seemed to be the case in turkish-occupied kurdistan, it did not hold true later. and i do have a source for that. please, provide me with a source that i may examine it. also please stop with the pol pot comparisons. i have heard this before and it is way over the top. ocalan, for all his faults, can never be compared with pol pot. look to hitler or stalin for proper comparisons.

given the fact that other kurdish parties and leaders have behaved in similar ways to ocalan, why do you oppose ocalan so vehemently?

tomjez writes:

No right to love

No right to have friends

You must cut every link to your family

No right to think by yourself

have you never served in any military, tomjez? because these statements apply to the military wing of PKK, not the political. how does one maintain proper military morale if soldiers are not disciplined? also, do you really believe that military people have no friends? because such is definitely not the case. if gerîlas left their families to become gerîlas, how do you expect them to maintain contact with their families or why? do you wish them to further endanger their families with the turkish security forces (and this question also goes back to the so-called "forcing" or "kidnapping" of young people to become gerîlas, if you will just think about it rationally)? do you prefer that they endanger their families? every gerîla went to the mountains with the distinct knowledge that they would probably never see their families again, due to the ever present danger of the ever present turkish security forces. so, these are very practical reasons for PKKs insistence on personal discipline and they apply, in varying degrees, to military people the world over.

as for "no right to think by yourself," i have to echo Nistiman and, additionally ask you, are you thinking freely in regards to PKK or ocalan, especially when the question raised by Nistiman--once again. . . remember her armed struggle question?--is legitimate and does not necessarily mean that anyone who raises the issue is apocî.

i will ask you also, tomjez, as i asked Vladimir, why do you oppose ocalan so vehemently?

Nistiman, i have to go for a little while, but i am definitely coming back to your question because it is an important one. perhaps, if others had given their reasons for their hatred of ocalan, we might be closer to discovering the answer. i still see this as the dichotomy i mentioned earlier, but i have also begun to wonder about the west's perception of a shift in the balance of power, or status quo, if indeed we did have a strong kurdish voice emanating from the region. i have also been wondering why other leaders have not drawn upon themselves the same hatred of the west, but in fact, many other leaders have great western supporters. . .such as arafat had, or sheikh yassin. . . even sinn fein leaders never drew the same hatred. as a result, your question is totally legitimate and may even be crucial to a better understanding of where kurdayetî stands today and what direction it needs to take for the future. let it not be forgotten that kurdayetî did have its birth among the bakurî.

also, i think i understand perfectly well what you are saying about the way in which the PKK cadres choose to live. . . but i will try to address that further as well.

serkeftin, hevala min!

[Piling]

What we have to add is that Öcalan forbids to his party to fell in love, but he has had his own harem of girls who were not very happy to be ... elected

because these statements apply to the military wing of PKK, not the political.

Wrong. Even in Political office it was forbidden, and everybody should spy and denounce his/her colleagues.

[Diri]

I wanna make clear one thing (about my stance):


I will always critisize fanatic PKK supporters - JUST AS MUCH as I always will critisize fanatic KDP, PUK, KDPI, KOMALA or YEKITI supporters...

I think the main problem here is:

The parties think that Kurds should serve THEM...

In a DEMOCRACY - the ELECTED PARTY - will serve the PEOPLE...