The start Site of this Forum. It got a lie

[Rumtaya]

Concerning the temple of Ashur, the first testimonies of inhabitation dated from 2300 BC (pre Sargon's period). 4750 BC is a very very very fantasist date... At this time Mesopotamia was (at the rest of the word) still in Prehistoric period. Archaic civilisations like Ur and Uruk cultures only started between -3100 -3000. Before it was only Neolithic Chalcolithic Period. No architecture, no writing. 4750 was the end of the Tell Halaf culture : just stoned vase, small statues, etc. The first State-City only appeared in Southern Mesopotamia about -3000.

aina. org is not a good historical source. Just ideology. So be careful with their assertions.

Quote:
But there is no Problem Kurds can live in those Area as citizen of Assyrian(not as Assyrians)


LOL ! of course ! a few minority of Assyrians would kindly allow to Kurds to live in the country where they are in majority... Sure they will kiss your hands...

I will tell you : you have the same dogma than sionism/ Jews say : we are descendants from Hebrew and Hebrews lived in Palestine in Ancient times, then Palestine is our country and we have the right to expell Arabs.

Even if these Muslim Palestinians are probably closer descendants from former Hebrews than European Jewish... But it is a religious ideology : GOd had given Israël to Jews so they had the right to expell Muslims...

Out of religious ideology, you have no justification to claim that Hewlêr is YOUR land (especially if your Grand-Pa was in Hakkari.... why you don't want to come back in Hakkari ?).

I was just waiting till you say Hakkari

Assyrians lived in hakkari since 700 hundred Years ago before they used to live in todays Northern Iraq. As the Mongoians came we had to flee our churches have been destoried and alot of Assyrians were killed at that time alot of Kurds settle from the taurus to to Assyria and also killed Assyrians.

Later we fleed to the Mountains of Kurdistans in the area of Hakkari there we lift in a kind of better conditions then in Assyria after the come of Mongols. But those werent our homeplaces we just had to stay there. And with the come of first world war as the world was busy with fighting and noone cared about the others Assyrians have been genozid on the brutalist way by Turks and some payed Kurdish tribe.

By the way my fathers grand grandfather had kurdish workers.

so yes that about Hakkari

[Piling]

Some Assyrians come back to Idil or other cities in Hakkari districts now, after they had to flee because of the war. Did you never come back to Hakkari, just for a visit ? There are still Christians there. At least they come back, they don't want let all the country to Kurds and Turks.

But you don't want to admit that Hakkari is more your Grand-Father's homeland than Mesopotamia (I wonder what your Grand Pa should have think). But why Northern Mesopotamia should be more your homeland than Hakkarai mountains ? Just before Assyrian empire is more ancient ? It is so unlogical than sionism.

And concerning the Mongols don't forget that they were not muslim, but most of them were Nestorian Christians too, and they even elected a Christian leader to Mesopotamia. It is only when after a few generations, they converted to islam that Chrsitians lost the power on Jazirah.

[Rumtaya]

Some Assyrians come back to Idil or other cities in Hakkari districts now, after they had to flee because of the war. Did you never come back to Hakkari, just for a visit ? There are still Christians there. At least they come back, they don't want let all the country to Kurds and Turks.

But you don't want to admit that Hakkari is more your Grand-Father's homeland than Mesopotamia (I wonder what your Grand Pa should have think). But why Northern Mesopotamia should be more your homeland than Hakkarai mountains ? Just before Assyrian empire is more ancient ? It is so unlogical than sionism.

if we wouldnt be genozid we would live in Hakkari, in northern ira, in tur abdin and in khabour and this always as majority.

We are since 80 years out of Hakkari but i would like to see it i would like to see my tribes villages. Thats nice if they come back well they used to live their. I wouldnt have any problems to live in Hakkari but it wont be so i better want an Assyria to live in.

By the way that you are talking about my Grandpa he used to say what do you guys talk about Hakkari we have enough from only Mountians dont annoy me with it hahaha.
you should have a read on this that you know more the situation of the Assyrians at the first gulf war and after it.


http://www.nineveh.com/Who%20Are%20We/Index.htm

[Piling]

I know the history of Christian moutainers of Kakkari. I have managed a publication of a Kurdish Study number about "exiled people", in which there are a paper about Assyrians and all their migrations, from 1830 to genocide.

http://www.institutkurde.org/publicatio ... etude7.php

In French, too bad you can't read it... But as you see, even in Kurdish institute we are not savage people, we studied too Jewish and Christian history in Kurdistan...

Si I go to bed now it is late in france. See you.

[Rumtaya]

I know the history of Christian moutainers of Kakkari. I have managed a publication of a Kurdish Study number about "exiled people", in which there are a paper about Assyrians and all their migrations, from 1830 to genocide.

So did you find out why Assyrians start to flee their ancorst homeplaces??
Dont you think we got the right to move back to our homes and set up our own State? Dont we share the same situation like you guys have just that you are 35 millions and we 4 millions.

By the way about Hakkari i can say Assyrians liked it there also have been good kurdish and armenian neighbours but there also have been bad conditions between Assyrians and Kurds because they were sometimes in fight.

Could someone give me the names of Kurdish Tribes who are settled in Hakkari??

My Grand Grand Grandfather wanted to build a House he gaved a Kurd to do it this was at the time of the Genozid. He gaved him i dont know how much Gold that gold the Kurdish man took for him without building anything.

I really would like to visisit the Hakkari Area the Assyrians lived in an area which was like a Triangle at the time after 1300 till 1918 but then you know what happend.

If someone saw the Assyrians Areas or so could he tell me about if you got some pictures would be much better.

[Piling]

I am not a specialist of eastern Chrsitians, but I can make a resume of the paper written by a specialist of this population :

1/ the heart of Nestorianism was in Mesopotamia but many missionaries spred this religion until Central Asia. For that reason, Mongols were friendly with them when they arrived in the ME.

But at the 14th century Tamerlan (who was not Mongol but Turk) destroyed a great aprt of Iran and Mespotamia. Like many populations (Kurds and others) Christians fled in moutains, along the Tigris and the Zab river, around Hakkari. During centuries, some other groups reached Urmiah, or went to the Western parto of Mosul.

According the author the "heart" of these Nestorians was in Hakkari, where sieged the Patriarch of Assyrian church, in Qotchanès. The "Chaldea" Patriarch was in Mosul (it was after the scission of these Chrsitians).

Many catholic and Protestants missions tried to incorporate these Christians in their own churches. So we have reaports of American evangelists, for example, on this population aroun 1835-40. They described them like very mobile people, traveling from Zagros to Azerbaydlan and Caucasus. The main reason of this mobility was 1/ economical motives, most poor people were jobless because of the aghas' power. When recolts were bad, for example, most of peasants were without mean to survive. So they left their land to Caucasus, where Russia need workers to modernize its regions (roads, trains, buildings, etc). Some other Christians went to Mosul and mesopotamia, becoming workers in archeological excavations. From Azerbaydjan, poor Assyrians went to Tiflis (Georgia) where they exercsed many jobs like Water-carriers, painters, masons... In Caucasus they built the railways and worked in oilfield of Baku. Much of them settled definitively in Azerbaydjan.

Russia had a policy to expell muslims and calling Christians on its border lands. For example if an Assyrian of Persia came to Russia, he received some fields and was exempted to pay taxes during 6 years. it was the same thing from Ottoman Assyrians who came to samavat in the district of Kars.At the beginning of the 20th cenrury, there was more than 2000 Assyrians in Tiflis. So Caucasus was, during the 19th century the first place of migration for Assyrians.

The second reason was the politcal unstability in Ottoman/Qadjar Kurdistan, when both sultan tried to reduce the power and the independance of Kurdish tribes. Constant wars and military occupation obliged farmer to lave their villages. At this time, there were Kurdish/Assyrian confederations of nomads, for the Assyrian tribes of Hakkari were, like Kurds, constituted by rich aghas oprressing the rayas (peasnats)... At this period, it was more a question of social classes (rich nomades vs poor sendentaries rayas) than a problem of religion or nations. Kurdish princes and the Nestorian Patriarch were quite independant against Ottoman administration.

I resume : Kurdish princes faced violently Ottoman army, and the Nestorian Patriarch (Mar Shimun tried to seek a foreign alliance (hopiong mostly in Russian or Western support).

The massacres of Chrsitians of 1895 incited more and more Assyrians to migrate in Iran between 1896 to 1914.

During the WWI, Urmiah was occupied by Russians who tried to make alliance with Assyrians, and then, when Kurds and Turks seized Urmiah, most Christians fled in Caucasus. In 1915, Mar Shimun made his main mistake : he stated openly that he supported Russians, and entered in war with Ottomans. Then Assyrian tribes were attacked by Kurdish tribes and Ottoman troops, without receiving any kind of military helps from Russians.

The Revolution of 1917 was a tragedy for Assyrians, for Russia stopped the war and Assyrians were abandonned to England, which promised to Armenians and Assyrians their independance... but let them. So the genocide happened. Assyrians from Hakakri fled in Iraq. In spite of the promise to have their own state (like Armenia/Kurdistan in the Treaty of Sèvres) they were forget by the League of Nation, who tried to make agreement with other populations of Northern Iraq to let them settle in these areas (I have red the reaports of debates in the League concerning the resettlement of Assyrians).

Assyrians hoped to come backin Hakkari, they couldnot. They hoped to have a state, they had not. After Brittons left iraq there were another massacres (in 1933, for example). Then a part of them fled in Eastern Syria. Nomadic Assyrian tribes were obliged to become sedentary people, and Assyrians were spred, from Caucasus to Syria.

That is all for the narration of "Assyrian wandering".

Could someone give me the names of Kurdish Tribes who are settled in Hakkari??

Ertus,î, Jirkî, Dirî, Pinyanis,î, Oramarî, Dorskî.

For pictures, well if you ask "Hakkari" in gogle images you will have a lot.

[Rumtaya]

Thanks for those information i had read once something like that you wrote down. Its really sad you know Assyrians tried to safe themselves but at least noone cared i dont want to say we have no fault of our todays situation cause there also had happen some mistake within assyrian politics you might know "Agha Patros" and the story about him and "Surma Khanem".

Assyrians hoped to come backin Hakkari, they couldnot. They hoped to have a state, they had not. After Brittons left iraq there were another massacres (in 1933, for example). Then a part of them fled in Eastern Syria. Nomadic Assyrian tribes were obliged to become sedentary people, and Assyrians were spred, from Caucasus to Syria.

About that i can tell you why Assyrians have been massacred i think there were killed about 3000 Assyrians(young, old,women,child,men).

The Iraqi Goverment feard that Assyrians start to make their own State or to call for an Assyrian State cause now they were back to there old homeland which they had to left after this timurlame came. So the Iraqi ARMY not some other peopole the Army went to the village of Simele and killed those innoecent people. We have a day which is our Martyr Day its of the 7th august when those simele massacres started.

The problem was British people didnt done anything against it they just betrailed us and used us for their intrest of the leviy army we have been used again.

I think Kurds and Assyrians really have to get their own stated after those hundred years of suffering.

[Diri]

Could someone give me the names of Kurdish Tribes who are settled in Hakkari??

Ertus,î, Jirkî, Dirî, Pinyanis,î, Oramarî, Dorskî.

Ertoshî are the largest tribe in Colemêrg... Please stop calling it "Hakkarî" because it isn't Hakkarî... Hakkarî is just one of the towns in Colemêrg - while you are talking about the WHOLE OF COLMÊRG...

And it is Dîrî, not Dirî...

And I need to add that Nîsanî, Herkî, Beyzade and some others also inhabit Colemêrg...

I don't understand why you bother discussing Colemêrg anyway... It isn't Assyrian and never was - even when there lived Assyrians there- they only lived next to Kurds - they never had the area for them selves... Kurds have always been the majority there...

And those stories about your grandfather, spare them, Rumtaya... I can tell you many stories about Assyrian WORKERS WHO WORKED FOR MY TRIBE... What is the POINT???

Just generally - I think this discussion is leading no where...

[Rumtaya]

I don't understand why you bother discussing Colemêrg anyway... It isn't Assyrian and never was - even when there lived Assyrians there- they only lived next to Kurds - they never had the area for them selves... Kurds have always been the majority there...

Who said Hakkari is Assyrian? I just say Assyrians used to flee to its Mountain Area around the 13th century AD. Is it a Problem for you if Assyrians come back to it? But there are only this Assyrians returining back who still lived after the first world war in it till the new time around the 80´s or 90´s and now they are going back to rebuild there homes do you have a Problem with it? Isnt it better for your colmerge if it looks moderner?? They are doing Kurds a favour by building those areas.

And those stories about your grandfather, spare them, Rumtaya... I can tell you many stories about Assyrian WORKERS WHO WORKED FOR MY TRIBE... What is the POINT???

Nothing i just like to tell about my grand grand grandfather not Grandfather.

Just tell me i would like to know how Assyrians lived in Hakkari and how they were with their kurdish and armenian neighbours.



Just generally - I think this discussion is leading no where...

[Diri]

Are the Assyrians doing Kurds a favour by moving to Kurdish lands?

They can live in Colemêrg if that is what they want - or they can live in Amed, Hewlêr, Kerkûk or Duhok... That is their choice... And they are free to make a choice... But don't expect service from Kurds just because you are building a house for yourself...


So you mean to say that you are having this discussion because you want to know how Assyrians lived in Colemêrg?

[Piling]

In any case, Kurds in most of their land can hardly live as Kurds... so why should they built a state for other people living out of the country and their oppression ? when you are in trouble, you have no time for helping others...

[Rumtaya]

Are the Assyrians doing Kurds a favour by moving to Kurdish lands?

Are you serious? Who said Assyrians move to Kurdish land Assyrians move to villages they used to live about a looooooong time 700 years. We will have no problem lets change those assyrians who are origianaly from hakkari withthouse who are in Arbil and Kirkuk?? do you agree?

They can live in Colemêrg if that is what they want - or they can live in Amed, Hewlêr, Kerkûk or Duhok... That is their choice... And they are free to make a choice... But don't expect service from Kurds just because you are building a house for yourself...

So you mean to say that you are having this discussion because you want to know how Assyrians lived in Colemêrg?

No i was just asking for it beside the way cause i dont want to open extra an topic for it. About what i am discussion is Southern Iraq.

Who said i exepct service they are just rebuildung their own homes arent they allowed to?

In any case, Kurds in most of their land can hardly live as Kurds... so why should they built a state for other people living out of the country and their oppression ? when you are in trouble, you have no time for helping others...

Who said they should build a State for others?? i dont remember that i said that but what i can read out from what you wrote is we dont want nonkurds in our land we will all drive you out but thats normal you used to do it around 1914 and start doing it again. you start make war with turkish goverment and took over Assyrian Villages the same Turks did with others what was the resultat of that all Assyrians had to flee their homes and villages. You started making war with Iraq took over Assyrians Villages the same Iraqi what was the Resultat Assyrians had to flee their Villages and those villages were left alone and now are settled by kurds.

Is that a tactic do get out the nonkurds of your "Kurdistan"????

[Piling]

What you don't understand is that if Assyrians are not in majority in an land they won't have their state. Sionist had understood it by migrating and buying Arab lands, etc. The only way for you to have these lands in Northern Mesopotamia is that Assyrians become more important than Kurds and are able to claim thei indepandance.... so it won't happen soonly, for now, even Kurds could not have their own state, though they are a majority in their own districts.

So you can claim all your life than Arbil is Assyrian... It won't change the facts... NU won't organize massive emigrations of Christians in that country (and I doubt that a lot of Assyrians would accept it ... in general diaspora never come back).

[Diri]

Rumtaya - stop saying stupid things... Kurds LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOURS... We are ALWAYS MORE tolerant than Assyrians - MOST Assyrians who live in the Diaspora are RASCIST towards Kurds... That is a FACT...

However - Assyrians in Kurdistan and in Assyria - respect Kurds and Kurds respect Assyrians... There is no problem - only Assyrians in the Diaspora LIKE TO MAKE PROBLEMS...

Stop saying stupid things - Assyrians have 5 seats in the Kurdistan Regional Parliament... And Turkmen also have 5 seats...

COLMÊRG IS KURDISH LANDS... No matter how many Assyrians live there (right now, VERY FEW Assyrians live there)...

Kurds never acted hostile towards Assyrians - some people were payed by the Turks in 1915 by Turks to do filthy work...

That is not a part of Kurdish culture or history - that is part of Turkish culture and history...

Do you think FEW Assyrians killed Kurds? A LOT of Assyrians killed Kurds...

When Simko was the leader - he didn't discriminate - he killed more Kurds than he killed Assyrians... And when Assyrians fled from Simko - they usually MASSACRED KURDS IN THE VILLAGES ON THEIR WAY...

Son stop acting like Assyrians are innocent babies... Assyrians have a long history of oppression towards the minorities under their comand...

[Rumtaya]

What you don't understand is that if Assyrians are not in majority in an land they won't have their state. Sionist had understood it by migrating and buying Arab lands, etc. The only way for you to have these lands in Northern Mesopotamia is that Assyrians become more important than Kurds and are able to claim thei indepandance.... so it won't happen soonly, for now, even Kurds could not have their own state, though they are a majority in their own districts.

So you can claim all your life than Arbil is Assyrian... It won't change the facts... NU won't organize massive emigrations of Christians in that country (and I doubt that a lot of Assyrians would accept it ... in general diaspora never come back).

What is the reason that Assyrians arent today the majority in their homeland Assyria???? I am waiting for the answer!

Rumtaya - stop saying stupid things... Kurds LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOURS... We are ALWAYS MORE tolerant than Assyrians - MOST Assyrians who live in the Diaspora are RASCIST towards Kurds... That is a FACT...

Yes they love their neighbours and they show that for political intrests. Assyrians arent racist they are saying the truth i dont say all kurds are bad but the kurdish politic is not good its only prokurdish and dont care on others.

However - Assyrians in Kurdistan and in Assyria - respect Kurds and Kurds respect Assyrians... There is no problem - only Assyrians in the Diaspora LIKE TO MAKE PROBLEMS...

No you know why they make here "Problems" because there is no kurdish PKK or KDP or PUK who will hit them or kill them if they say something against the kurdish politic.

Stop saying stupid things - Assyrians have 5 seats in the Kurdistan Regional Parliament... And Turkmen also have 5 seats...

I am sure those 5 Assyrians are of chaldean domination and are controlled by kurds they are marionetts just put their that the Assyrians cant say something against the political partys of kurds if that would be so they say look we are democraty we have also 5 Assyrians in our KRG.

COLMÊRG IS KURDISH LANDS... No matter how many Assyrians live there (right now, VERY FEW Assyrians live there)...

I dont deny that but you deny Arbela as Assyrian land you see i act better like you. Why do live there very few Assyrians????

Kurds never acted hostile towards Assyrians - some people were payed by the Turks in 1915 by Turks to do filthy work...

I said that once ill say it again my dear friend diri noone does a job only because of money there have been other intrets taking over the lands of assyrians.

That is not a part of Kurdish culture or history - that is part of Turkish culture and history...

Do you think FEW Assyrians killed Kurds? A LOT of Assyrians killed Kurds...

I cant say no Assyrians never killed Kurds because that would be wrong. It is for sure that Kurds also have been killed by the Hand of Assyrians tribes i cant deny that and wont.

When Simko was the leader - he didn't discriminate - he killed more Kurds than he killed Assyrians... And when Assyrians fled from Simko - they usually MASSACRED KURDS IN THE VILLAGES ON THEIR WAY...

He did the biggest mistake as he killed the Assyrian Patriach that will never get forgotten. Assyrians have been in war their familie members have been killed its not right to take ravange and i wont symphtise it but they were mad and sad they just did what happend to them.

Son stop acting like Assyrians are innocent babies... Assyrians have a long history of oppression towards the minorities under their comand...

I am not saying that but when in the new time did Assyrians opressed others????

Do you mean the time of the Assyrian Empire if yes do you really want to compare the Assyrians of the old time with that one of today???
It was normal on these times beeing so hard and acting like barbars but finally Assyrians have paid for that what happend by losing their empire and everything.

But you cant compare what was 2500 years ago with the time of today you cant!!!