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why can't our culture change?

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why can't our culture change?

PostAuthor: bamerni » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:19 pm

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Kurdish couple in Finland know pain of family disapproval


By Kati Juurus

They sit holding hands on their grey sofa. Looking at them from their bookshelf are pictures of mothers, fathers, brothers, cousins, sisters, nephews and nieces: a beloved family, half of whom have disowned them.
A year ago in December Leila Abdulkadir and Abdoulmajid Hakki were married by a mullah. Leila strokes her stomach: their first child will be born in June.
Leila is a Kurd of Syrian origin who had lived with her family in Sweden, and Abdoulmajid is a Finnish citizen of Iranian Kurdish extraction. The two got to know each other through a Kurdish Internet chat room. They met a few times in secret, spoke on the telephone, and fell in love.
The two were married, even though Leila's brother had beaten his adult sister and threatened to kill both Leila and her fiancé after hearing about their plans. The brother - and the rest of Leila's family - disapproved of her marrying a stranger.

Leila fled her home in Sundsvall to be with her Abdoulmajid. Her brother came after her - to Lahti where he thought the young couple had first settled. However, they were already living somewhere else, in their present home in a small Finnish town where Hakki is studying communications.
Is Leila still afraid of her brother? She shrugs her shoulders, and says that she still feels afraid when the doorbell rings.
Behind their curtain stands a snowy forest. Leila's brother has not come here yet.

The recent case of Fadime Sahindal, a young Kurdish woman in Sweden who was murdered by her father, sent shock waves through this household. Abdoulmajid wrote a letter to the editor of Helsingin Sanomat about the event. However, the two are not all that surprised.
The killing was not the only one of its kind. A few years ago an Iraqi man killed his sister in Sweden for similar reasons. Such incidents have also taken place in Norway.
Abdoulmajid Hakki, a former peshmerga, or Kurdish freedom fighter, came to Finland in 1992 as part of that year's refugee quota. At one point he went to London to study and returned to Finland to work and further study. He is active in Kurdish organisations and keeps himself informed on current events concerning immigration issues.
He says that he has clashed with many Kurds living in Finland over these questions. Some men do not approve of their daughters' boyfriends, their fashion preferences, Internet chats, or their adaption to the Finnish lifestyle.
"I know that there are fathers in Finland as well, who are thinking about killing their daughters", Hakki says in a hushed tone.
What is wrong with these Muslim men? Why do some refuse to integrate?
Is the much-touted multiculturalism even possible?

Leila prepares coffee while Abdoulmajid cuts cake.
From Finland's point of view, the Hakkis are dream immigrants, who do not even complain that Leila was not let into a language course, and that she had been initially denied access to Finnish prenatal clinic.
Fortunately she speaks Swedish and English. Abdoulmajid, 30, speaks almost perfect Finnish. Now he is considering whether he should get a job after finishing his studies, or start work on a doctoral thesis. Leila wants to study economics and go into business.
Leila, 24, arrived in Sweden as a teenager along with her older brother and younger sister. In Syria she had lived a relatively free life, but in Sweden her brother soon started to change, ordering the girls around, and watching their every move. He did not approve of her friends, would not let her go out, and otherwise acted as if he owned his sisters.
Abdoulmajid talks about the same phenomenon. He has seen many cases in which an arrival in a new country turns to ancient traditions, emphasising the differences in the old and new cultures.

The Hakkis feel that the greatest difference between the Nordic and Muslim cultures concerns gender and generational issues. "A conservative Muslim man sees himself as the owner of his family", Abdoulmajid says.
"Someone who feels he is failing and being rejected in the new country will easily seek refuge in old traditions. Often things get dug up which may even have been buried in history in the old country as well."
Hakki's family has experience of this as well. His cousin, who lived in Norway, dragged his family back to his home region after his wife gave birth to a daughter.
The cousin could not stand the thought that the daughter might live like a Norwegian some day.
"But Kurdistan had also changed. Boys and girls were walking hand-in-hand on the streets there. Now the cousin has moved to a primitive village which doesn't even have any cars."

Abdoulmajid Hakki pulls no punches in his analysis. He divides immigrants into those who succeed and those who do not. The unsuccessful are the stubborn ones who are not open to being in a new situation, or to the culture of the new country.
"They close themselves up, turn away, and seek an explanation for their own failure in their religion. They say that it is the will of God."
Hakki says that even in Finland things happen in the families of the "failed immigrants", which he feels should not be permitted, such as arranged - that is, forced - marriages of girls who are underage.
Sharia [Islamic law] allows marriages to take place at a very early age, and the mullahs here are willing to marry girls who are 16 years old, and sometimes younger", he claims.
"Some couples move in together immediately, while others patiently wait until they are of age."
Hakki says that these kinds of marriages are made official under Finnish law when the girl is old enough. Sometimes the marriages last, and sometimes the couples split up when the wife becomes an adult and learns to be independent.
Hakki says that sixteen is a very dangerous age, as it is the end of compulsory education in Finland.

More shocking examples: Hakki says that some Muslim men in Finland have two wives. The way that this is done is that the man officially divorces his first wife, and marries another. In practice, he lives with both of them."
"The wives, who do not speak the local language, are ignorant of their rights. They are at home taking care of the children, cooking for their husbands. They accept the system", Hakki says and continues: "Officials should be more vigilant. They should always treat immigrants the same way as Finns."
Hakki says that many times he has seen that Finnish police ignore domestic abuse in immigrant families because it is seen as a part of their culture.
Finnish doctors and social workers accept it when the male head of an immigrant family speaks on behalf of the women in the family.
In Hakki's view, equal treatment has suffered because of cultural politeness.
As a result, trends continue which further alienate immigrants from Finnish society, and hinder the process of integration.

Leila has prepared dolmades to eat. Abdoulmajid sets the table.
During the meal we discuss the difficult issues. Who are the "failures" that Abdoulmajid talks about?
The Hakkis feel that success does not always depend on the immigrant's level of education, religion, or degree of religiosity.
"What is most important is the attitude, and how a person accepts the outside world and the change", Abdoulmajid says, as Leila nods.
"I know many who have been very traditional when they came, but who are now happy with their new lives, letting their children grow up here, and are happy with their children's success."
But if everything depends on a person's attitude, then what can be done about men like Fadime's father and Leila's brother?
Hakki refuses to be a pessimist. He says that it is more difficult for some than for others, and it might take a generation or two before there is no friction in the coexistence of cultures.

The attitudes of the immigrants themselves are the only problem in Hakki's view.
"Immigrants see only the surface of Finnish culture. They see the drunks at the railway station. They are also shocked at the sight of children drinking alcohol on the streets, and the scantily-clad women in outdoor advertisements."
It is hardly surprising that some resist the very idea of integrating into such a society.
"Many have no idea what a normal Finnish life is like."
To help immigrants get a better understanding of Finnish life and culture, Abdoulmajid Hakki would like to see more education and interaction with the population at large.
Finnish officials often say the same kinds of things, but surely Hakki has also noticed that many Finns - who are busy with work, raising children, and other activities - feel that they simply do not have the time to go out of their way to start interacting with immigrants.
"If just one percent were interested! Even that would be better than nothing. People could just discuss ordinary issues. Raising children, for instance."

Leila moves her hand over her stomach. Her baby is moving.
What do the two want for their own child?
The Hakkis smile and shrug their shoulders. "The child can decide him- or herself", Leila says.
Abdoulmajid says that he would like it if the child were to marry a Finn. "We would get Finnish relatives."
But aren't they sad that their culture might gradually fade away with each successive generation?
"Ever since I came here in 1992 I have been talking to the Kurds about the position of women. I have been told that I will be killed for talking like that", Abdoulmajid says, and continues: "I am only trying to say that we will not lose our identity by learning Finnish ways, or if we marry Finns..."
He thinks for a moment, glances at his row of photos on their bookshelf next to the Koran. "Culture does not disappear. It changes. I don't have to live in the mountains, even though my family lived there 100 years ago."

Helsingin Sanomat / First published in print 3.2.2002
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why can't our culture change?

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PostAuthor: Mosul » Sat Aug 27, 2005 3:08 am

forced marriages are nothing but our culture, nothing to do with religon. all tribal ppls work like this.

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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:20 pm

Mosul wrote:forced marriages are nothing but our culture, nothing to do with religon. all tribal ppls work like this.


the ugly parts of our culture is effects of "First Arabization Process" in 1200 years ago.

you know when arabs came to the region, and defeated nations , they imposed their language , their relligion their culture to the other nations .
many nations were FADED forever....like you see many countries that they speak NO WORD of their former language.... and they have NOTHING of their former culture.... they have become complely Arab, like Africian Countries, - Egypet, and almost Syria - Jordan and Iraq.

but Kurds resisted and saved their language- their culture (such as dance-music-celebrations...)

but still kurds as other nations , has been affecedted in these 1200 years by Arab Winners.

we should Reverse these Arabisation program too , as we are trying to take Kirkuk back be Normalization the Kirkuk and cleaning occupyer arabs ,
we must take our culture back and Clean it from bad arabic things.
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PostAuthor: Diri » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:18 pm

Mosul - yes... It has nothing to do with Islam or any other religion...

Today in Kurdistan, maybe 10% of all marriages are forced... The rest both the boy and the girl say "YES" - and yeah they are arranged - but arranged doesn't mean "forced"... Even Europeans "arrange" their wedding and marriage... They have a PLAN and that means they arrange it...

The Arabs came in 600 + AD... So that makes it 1400 + - years...

Kurds have traditions for arranging marriages - but not for forcing... We don't have that as natural part of our culture... It is not Kurdish. We arrange - (Families talk with their children "you wanna marry him/her - and then "yes" or "no")...

And today Kurds marry for love - where I come from anyway... Colemêrg/Urmiye...
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PostAuthor: Delal » Sun Aug 28, 2005 3:06 am

Who really cares where or who brought forced marriages to the region? I think that the more important point is how do we balance traditional practices in a modern world?

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PostAuthor: Mosul » Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:09 pm

dyako its really childish of you to blaim forced marriages on the arabs, before islam was even introduced to the peoples, there were arranged marriages, all tribal peoples are like this.

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PostAuthor: pepula » Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:12 pm

my mum always tells me that i'll never be forced into marriage.
forced marriages are a thing of the past and you see few of them now.
i, like many have the choice to say yes, or no when somebody comes for my daxwazi...all been 'no' so far...lol
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PostAuthor: bamerni » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:02 pm

pepula wrote:my mum always tells me that i'll never be forced into marriage.
forced marriages are a thing of the past and you see few of them now.
i, like many have the choice to say yes, or no when somebody comes for my daxwazi...all been 'no' so far...lol

well i all i know is that i can get marry to whom i want ... but it is just hard to find the right person...
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PostAuthor: ChiChalok » Tue Aug 30, 2005 3:43 pm

lol medya really why do u blame everything on arabs>!!>!
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PostAuthor: dyaoko » Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:23 pm

ChiChalok wrote:lol medya really why do u blame everything on arabs>!!>!

I am not like that, I dont blame other nations for our own problems..

but you know what ? you iraqi kurds have VERY VERY LOW information about what we kurds were before islam ...I am in Iran, I know Irans History...

when arabs attack to Iran , (Kurds were a part of iran in ancient times) they burnt down EVERY BOOK !!! they ruinded down every buliding ...
Kurds and Iranian were so modern in their time.... you never know about the inventions that Kurds and Iranians had had...

Kurds and Arabs at that time had about 1000 yyears diffrence...arabs were 1000 years before us...but after they come... sigh...
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PostAuthor: kurdistani » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:34 pm

Any one who blames ARabs for this problem in Kurdistan is a traitor in my book.... Women is south Kurdistan are treated very badly and it is our fault... BTW we should not be comparing ourselves with the Arabs........ Many marrages are forced in Kurdistan like it or not......

By Shahalo Salar
The Globe

Two or three years ago, there was no place for lovers to go to and date, especially in our society, so they had to limit their relationships to phone chatting at least till they got married, but that was not acceptable by lots of love birds who had the burning fire in their hearts while missing their soul mates. When the boy would tell the girl “I miss you so badly” the girl would not say that she is terrified from her family if any one from relatives caught them on a date. She would simply tell the guy that it was a mutual feeling. “But where can we go? Do you have a place in your mind; like a safe one?” the girl would ask.

This sentence was always enough to shut the boy up and continue spending his pocket money on phone calls. Well, here is where comes in the breakthrough, this excuse no longer exists. At the beginning of this year, the government turned a very big land, located on the 60-m street opposite to the parliament, into to a very big park with a large number of trees, and miraculously, this park is the only immaculate place in Irbil where people don’t actually throw away garbage just anywhere.

The park also contains a lake-like pool with several restaurants, hectares of grass and trees, a big plasma screen and several pathways and avenues, with music playing in the background. There is one other thing; in Europe, the boy can invite his date to the movies. Well we don’t have to feel sorry no more; we can now do just the same. Ours is even better and more convenient; it is free.

It is true that there are no seats available, but when they lay down on the grass and watch whatever is on the screen, it doesn’t really matter what movie or song is on because the two lovers are already busy chatting with each other freely, and that just feels great. And while the couples are walking along the roads or sitting somewhere they feel secure because the park is about the only official place where no one can interfere between couples as per a recent law.
All these things make the Kurdish men think, why was I planning to leave my country? We are taking steps forward good. If you are reading this article and you are married, you shouldn’t feel hopeless because the park is not only for singles; it is available for every individual who is looking for some intimate moments with his or her other half. It is even a place for big families who want to avoid the traffic jams on their way to Shaqlawa or any other touristy place, hence they go to the park and they enjoy a nice family picnic without leaving or going far from the city.

Note: some lover pictures are not published because of security reasons! National Security)
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PostAuthor: Mosul » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:17 am

dyako iraqi kurds are no different from kurds in Iran, we have the same culture,religon,and language. forced marriages are KURDISH CULTURE, and always have been, rather you like it or not.

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PostAuthor: bamerni » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:37 pm

Mosul wrote:dyako iraqi kurds are no different from kurds in Iran, we have the same culture,religon,and language. forced marriages are KURDISH CULTURE, and always have been, rather you like it or not.

well it was the kurdish culture but not anymore....... i hate the idea of forcing their kids to get marry.
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PostAuthor: Mosul » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:07 am

bameri forced marriages are very active in kurdistan, and will take a long time to extinct, even the kurds over here in US practice a form of arrange marriage.

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PostAuthor: kurdistani » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:25 pm

Mosul wrote:bameri forced marriages are very active in kurdistan, and will take a long time to extinct, even the kurds over here in US practice a form of arrange marriage.

That is Ayb....
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