Jews Security Institute to help Turkey in Killing kurds !

[abdur]

For the rights I think it's more EU influence than PKK...rights came AFTER öcalan was arrested, and only when AKP came into power...

I agree but indirect its also the pkk-rebellion who put it on EU agenda.

For the Agas I guess PKK killed most of them as imperialit traitors Laughing

Well Diri said something true about asirets but still we cant have aga's owning land and farmers working for him.. in the end i believe were really better off without the aga system. Especially when we want to govern ourselves.. see the kdp (barzani asiret).

For situation of women: yeah lot of thing to do. First stop killing women who don't want to join PKK...

I disagree with this, it's not something that happened systematically. No really, think of woman situation in Kurdistan before the '70 and now, pkk ideology was relatively woman friendly because they didnt make any difference between man and woman. Theyre propaganda was against honour killings, against keeping woman under male rule .. they made many women organisations in different places.

It may have stopped assimilation. I has also stopped education, which is not very nice for kurds...

Yeah i agree, they killed turkish teachers in villages (which im against cause they're civilians) but didnt bring any good alternative like secret kurdish education. Education is the most important thing what we need in Kurdistan.

Anyway, i dont think black white, although im against pkk-policy in general i need to say they did bring something good as the points we mentioned. Still i dont want to suggest it's worth it, too many people have been killed and still many are going to die. A rebellion was truely legitimate back in the '80 but not the way they handled it.

[Diri]

You mention Barzani Eshîret... What about it...???

[abdur]

I mean parties based on asiret are generally undemocratic. kdp has the name "democratic" but they're not that democratic. Look how its leadership is still based on the family structure, how they never change leadership by voting, how they dont accept critisism from inside the party. Times have changed, when Mistefa Barzani was in power i found it acceptable but now i would like the party to develope/modernize cause they have to govern a country.

From all the kurdish parties i know, kdp-rojhelat is the only democratic party.

[Diri]

I mean parties based on asiret are generally undemocratic. kdp has the name "democratic" but they're not that democratic. Look how its leadership is still based on the family structure, how they never change leadership by voting, how they dont accept critisism from inside the party. Times have changed, when Mistefa Barzani was in power i found it acceptable but now i would like the party to develope/modernize cause they have to govern a country.

From all the kurdish parties i know, kdp-rojhelat is the only democratic party.

LOL!

Funny - Mesûd Barzanî was ELECTED as the leader of KDP for the dozenth time in the last conferance they held - and they have been holding a LOT of conferances!

We are talking about Kurdish parties here - not Scandinavian or West European ones - they are BOUND to be as they are!

But you taking KDP as a BAD example is funny! Why don't we compare it to PKK which STILL is STUCK on APO!!?? THAT my brother, is an UNDEMOCRATIC party!

Whatever there is wrong with the KDP - it is far better than the PKK - the PUK is also a DEMOCRATIC party by KURDISH standards!

And just so you know - the KDPI (the one in Iran) and KDPS (the one in Syria) as well as the newly established KDPT(the one in Turkey) are all VERY close to the KDP leadership... And believe me they all out their loyalty in Mistefa Barzanî Nemir!

Saying that Mesûd Barzanî was NOT elected is a silly thing... You must be unaware of what goes on in Southern Kurdistan - everybody knows (it has been proclaimed in Kurdish media(in e.g. krg.org - kurdishmedia.com - kerkuk-kurdistan.com etc. each time)... So why didn't you know this, brother?

Well anyway... Please do better research next time - because these types of rumors aren't healthy for an unstable nation... Kurds in all four parts of Kurdistan need legitimacy - we mustn't put up barriers that don't exist (like the false claims of the Assyrians that they are treated badly by the KRG and the allegations that Êzidî, Shebek and Feîlî aren't Kurdish)...

However I must ad that - KDPI has not been so much in power (in e.g. executed it's policies) for us to be sure of it's policies...

Anyway - I just hope that people stop thinking like this... What's up with "my party is better than yours" mentality? F**k the parties - WE MUST THINK ABOUT KURDISTAN - AND ONLY KURDISTAN! This means that we should follow that leadership which SERVES Kurdistan - and if a leadership TURNS AWAY - WE SHALL TURN AWAY FROM THAT PARTY! We should critisize when needed and give credit when due...

[abdur]

Why don't we compare it to PKK which STILL is STUCK on APO!!??

Im aware that pkk is even more "undemocratic" inside cause of Apo's policy inside the party. I didnt take the pkk as an example cause they arent a party based on asiret and i was taking an example why we dont need parties based on asit/aga-system.


"Leadership" is not only the party leader but also the other decision makers, in kdp top were many family members of Barzani. The family members who arent politically active have high positions in other places. I dont think in a way like "hey we have this kurdish standard and in that case kdp isnt undemocratic at all". I am born in Holland, i compare the parties here and there, and i explain why it is better that the kdp-party must develop because they are ruling a country now instead of fighting in the mountains.

And believe me they all out their loyalty in Mistefa Barzanî Nemir!

The kdp-rojhelat are loyal to Mistefa Barzani in a way that they honour him, they dont follow the standards of father->son leadership of the party.

Saying that Mesûd Barzanî was NOT elected is a silly thing

I didnt say Barzani wasnt elected, i said: "how they never change leadership by voting".
I mean they dont pick someone else, and they will never do so till Massoud passes away or till nephew Nechirwan takes over.

You must be unaware - So why didn't you know this - Please do better research next time

Can we discuss matters without using this kind of words, in most cases we just misunderstand eachother, but we can clarify things in the future.

This means that we should follow that leadership which SERVES Kurdistan - and if a leadership TURNS AWAY - WE SHALL TURN AWAY FROM THAT PARTY! We should critisize when needed and give credit when due...

I agree without hesitation.

I see im getting more and more off topic now, sorry for that.

[Diri]

Why don't we compare it to PKK which STILL is STUCK on APO!!??

Im aware that pkk is even more "undemocratic" inside cause of Apo's policy inside the party. I didnt take the pkk as an example cause they arent a party based on asiret and i was taking an example why we dont need parties based on asit/aga-system.


"Leadership" is not only the party leader but also the other decision makers, in kdp top were many family members of Barzani. The family members who arent politically active have high positions in other places. I dont think in a way like "hey we have this kurdish standard and in that case kdp isnt undemocratic at all". I am born in Holland, i compare the parties here and there, and i explain why it is better that the kdp-party must develop because they are ruling a country now instead of fighting in the mountains.

And believe me they all out their loyalty in Mistefa Barzanî Nemir!

The kdp-rojhelat are loyal to Mistefa Barzani in a way that they honour him, they dont follow the standards of father->son leadership of the party.

Saying that Mesûd Barzanî was NOT elected is a silly thing

I didnt say Barzani wasnt elected, i said: "how they never change leadership by voting".
I mean they dont pick someone else, and they will never do so till Massoud passes away or till nephew Nechirwan takes over.

You must be unaware - So why didn't you know this - Please do better research next time

Can we discuss matters without using this kind of words, in most cases we just misunderstand eachother, but we can clarify things in the future.

This means that we should follow that leadership which SERVES Kurdistan - and if a leadership TURNS AWAY - WE SHALL TURN AWAY FROM THAT PARTY! We should critisize when needed and give credit when due...

I agree without hesitation.

I see im getting more and more off topic now, sorry for that.

Well - I am sorry about that! But you do know that the KDP does have meetings where they vote for the party leader? And even though Barzanî was elected again - they still HAD the vote...

And I think that most people have a very disrupted perception of the Eshîrets - there is no "Aga system" - This ended in the 1940's - they keep to their buisness and can be named as traditional Kurdish families - which put great pride in their "system" as you call it - but in reality this "system" has no effect - they have been, mostly, robbed of their lands - as is in my Eshîrets case - where the STATE - Iran and Turkey - have taken the lands and built dams, roads or whatever else to serve their purpose...

Anyway... I agree - the OLD system of the Axa's was not a postive thing ANYMORE - but it was in a way too - because it was the only thing that kept millions of Kurds from assimilating - and it stopped being "good" in 1940's... But there is no return - we are marching towards democracy even if we don't want it... We should be proud of what our nation has achived in these few years! And we should critisize our nation for not doing more!

[abdur]

Well - I am sorry about that! But you do know that the KDP does have meetings where they vote for the party leader? And even though Barzanî was elected again - they still HAD the vote... Wink

but it still feels like the way Apo was chosen by his party, i mean nobody would have tried to vote different... This changing of leadership is necessary if we want a "fresh wind" in politic-land.

anyway what do you think of him being chosen as president of Kurdistan without direct vote from the people? I never saw that in any democratic country before where they have a president chosen by parliament and not directly from elections. We knew about everything before the elections.. who was gonna be president, how many seats would this and that party get in parliament, who was going to be prime-minister. 1992 was really more democratic and fair...

And I think that most people have a very disrupted perception of the Eshîrets - there is no "Aga system" - This ended in the 1940's - they keep to their buisness and can be named as traditional Kurdish families - which put great pride in their "system" as you call it - but in reality this "system" has no effect - they have been, mostly, robbed of their lands - as is in my Eshîrets case - where the STATE - Iran and Turkey - have taken the lands and built dams, roads or whatever else to serve their purpose...

I dont know about other parts of Kurdistan except for 1 seyh from Mahabad... and im sorry for ur family. In northern Kurdistan we still had the real-deal aga system in many areas till recently, it wasnt really turkey who diminished it (turkey used them for being "koykurucu" /jahs), but the pkk. Our "aga" of the large Omeryan asiret is living now in Nisebin-city and he is now more among the people and doesnt look down on people anymore, people say he became afraid of pkk-policy and changed his habits therefore. He is now more like a symbolic aga.

Anyway... I agree - the OLD system of the Axa's was not a postive thing ANYMORE - but it was in a way too - because it was the only thing that kept millions of Kurds from assimilating - and it stopped being "good" in 1940's... But there is no return - we are marching towards democracy even if we don't want it... We should be proud of what our nation has achived in these few years! And we should critisize our nation for not doing more! Wink

i can put my signature under this text