****Dîrî, your post is not totally ignored. you are correct, parties should work for the people. unfortunately, it is a fact that more than just one do not do so. you are also correct about fanaticism and i think the most important reason to oppose fanaticism is because fanaticism is opposed to criticism. by the way, i think the marxism issue that you bring up is something that happened because of the political milieu in which PKK was founded (1970s turkey). i do not believe that marxism is an absolute requirement for defining PKKs ideology in the future. this would be a great subject for another thread.
Dîrî, tell us why
you think ocalan is so hated by "outsiders" (i.e. western governments/leaders)?
****Vladimir, if it is clear that Nistiman is a PKK supporter then it is equally clear that i am a PKK supporter. i know Nistiman's questions, comments
and criticisms of PKK and ocalan long before this forum and i find that there is little to no disagreement between us on this subject. that is the problem isn't it? if we are PKK supporters, and if we are to believe everyone here when they say that there is no criticism permitted of the PKK by PKK supporters then we have a dilemma, don't we? perhaps it is simply a matter that Nistiman and i are not so pure in the ideology as, say, berxwedan is.
do you feel that i, as a PKK supporter, attempt to withhold your opinion from you? i do not. you may have your opinion just as Nistiman and i may have our opinions, however, i would hope that yours would also be an
informed opinion as opposed to one formed by wild rumor and speculation. there is too much wild rumor and speculation in connection with PKK and ocalan already.
i am not familiar with michiel leezenberg, however it appears that he is a specialist in kurdistan bashur and political islam among kurds:
http://home.hum.uva.nl/oz/leezenberg/papersml.html
however, i shall look over these papers which are available online.
do the yekiti and azadî parties stand to gain anything by opposing PKK? why should i believe what they say about PKK any more than i should believe what KDP says about PKK? or what PKK says about KDP? do you see where i am going with these questions?
"why do you oppose ocalan so vehemently?".. Because what he has said on TV, that he still is the leader of PKK and no one takes over his role, his ideology/books.. etc
this is your opinion and it is fine. in fact, we may be closer in our opinions on those subjects that you mention than you realize. from what i know of Nistiman's opinions, you may be closer to her opinions than you realize too. are you opposed to Nistiman asking questions such as she has asked on this forum? do you understand that she is asking theoretical questions that are aimed at the heart of something greater than simply one man on imrali? because i believe that this is what she is doing. she is looking toward the future of bakur by trying to understand the present.
and that explanation is not only for you, Vladimir, but for all those who turn histrionic and reactionary when anyone mentions PKK or ocalan. . . even when it is in a theoretical or abstract context. it is her right as a rational being to ask questions, whether she is a PKK supporter or not.
now tell me, why do
you think ocalan is so hated by "outsiders" (i.e. western governments/leaders)?
****tomjez, i thought you were coming out of your shell and dropping the hysterics with regard to PKK and the entire situation for kurds in bakur, but here you go again, yes, in a reactionary manner. come on, you can do better than that.
on other threads, we have already been through much of the same subjects you bring up again here. if you don't care about apo, why do you have a knee-jerk reaction every time someone you perceive as PKK supporter asks a theoretical question about him or PKK? i would think that if you truly didn't care about apo, you would pass this thread by, as would everyone else who claims to not care about apo. what was it berxwedan said. . . . "Your favourite issue. Only because PKK and Apo are the greatest. Otherwise it wouldn't have been such a great issue. I mean, who the hell wants to talk about Kemal Burkay?"
so, obviously you care very much.
My problem is people refusing to open their eyes, remaining faithful to some "mad dream" as Apo said himself! Do you think that Kurdistan's independence cause is unable to survive without Apo or PKK?????
where is this coming from?
I can answer for Vladimir I guess: Because Talabani and Barzani rule a free Kurdistan, so at least the achieved something. Öcalan made north kurdistan poorer, more dangerous, more oppressed, less educated.
He turned a lot of northern kurds in boring robots all saying the same sick speeches.
this is your opinion and it is also fine. let me mention, however, that talabanî and barzanî rule a liberated kurdistan, with limited freedoms. dr. kamal will certainly disagree with you on your characterization of south kurdistan as "free" or that something has been achieved. perhaps the protestors for water and electricity in kalar or those protesting lack of fuel in akre will also question your characterization of south kurdistan as "free." those who can't get work because they are not party members, may also disagree. and what about the corruption? do you see what i mean? there are still very serious problems in the south and while it may be liberated from the threat of saddam, it remains to be seen whether talabanî and barzanî are going to allow the people to make it a free kurdistan.
so, tomjez, why do
you think ocalan is so hated by "outsiders" (i.e. western governments/leaders)?
****Piling, it is not a fact that PKKers are not permitted to marry, have friends, etc. Nistiman is correct when she says that ERNK did not have so many restrictions. ARGK, on the other hand, was the military wing of the PKK and it had many more restrictions. as for the cadres, if they are always expected to be ready to go to the mountains from wherever they are located, then it tells me that they are more closely aligned with ARGK and are following its rules.
now let me ask you, do you not think they knew of those rules before becoming cadres? i mean, if this is a fact that everyone here appears to
swear to, that no one at all in PKK can ever marry, have friends, etc, don't you think a PKK member elevated to the cadres knows this too? does that not mean that they have chosen not to marry? because that is what this whole issue boils down to. . . no marriage. it is ludicrous to suggest that human beings are not going to form friendships, but to choose a path that does not permit marriage is not at all unusual and such a choice has been around for thousands of years and all around the globe. to imply, suggest or propagandize that this is some aberration created by PKK is nonsense.
the catholic church has been one of the greatest enforcers of celibacy around, yet i don't hear the same criticism of the church as i do of PKK, and certainly not with the same ferocity. if everyone is that worried about celibacy as it appears here, please, attack rome! free all those poor religious people who have chosen for themselves a celibate life! does that sound ridiculous? it was meant to sound that way because to attack the church because it requires celibacy of certain members is ridiculous.
as for those cadres who were "executed" because they were married and thus violated the rule that they knew existed and that they chose, i would suggest looking for a deeper reason for their executions because paul white in his book
Primitive Rebels or Revolutionary Modernizers? The Kurdish National Movement in Turkey documents the fact that there have been ARGK gerîlas who defected from PKK to KDP and then returned to PKK, were tried by "People's Court" at mahsum korkmaz akademisi and did not receive a sentence of execution. therefore it is rational for me to think that there is a deeper reason for executions in certain cases. please note, this does not mean that i approve of executions wholesale. at the same time, i do not approve of wild rumor and speculation.
if we have these execution orders coming from imrali, then let us look to see what benefit the turkish state derives from them.
as for the "harem" comments, i have also heard these before and would like to examine the evidence for them.
please tell us, Piling, why do
you think ocalan is so hated by "outsiders" (i.e. western governments/leaders)?
****Dilsad, you also please tell us, why do
you think ocalan is so hated by "outsiders" (i.e. western governments/leaders)? it is a theoretical question and we are trying to find an answer, but we have been sidetracked by many little aligators biting at our heels.
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