Abdullah Öcelan

[Piling]

My own position is :

Firstly the PKK was useful for Kurds, they awoke them. And the first militants were really animated by a real desire to fight for Kurdistan.

But around 1990s this party became more and more totalitarian and focused on its Leader's Cult. Then they became a nuisance for Kurds themselves, Öcalan had not the aim to liberate Kurdistan but to keep its power by terror and brain-washing. He ordered that Kurds should forget their "Kurdish traditionnal culture and past" (he called them feodalism) and that they became "new men" aka only fanatic of Apo. They exercised a terror against any intellectual or politician who refused to be enslaved.

At this time, too, they began to lost the war, just because Öcalan refused to attack Western Turkey (because MIT threatened him to kill him even in Syria) and refused to give a lot of weapons and money for guerilla (fearing that military commandants were more powerful than him). Some millions were given to MED TV, not in his mind because it was culturaly and politically important (it had been but it was not his aim) just because by this media he could talk during hours and hours by phone... His speeches were longer than Fidel castro's... and so dull...

And in the same time, guerilla lacked of weapons, food, material. But it was not his preoccupation.

At the end, the PKK aimed to destroy the HADEP, wich was too politically independant and had a certain success, a success that the PKK could not accept. So it pushed its members to make provocation in the aim that Tuks banned this party. It happened. And now DEHAP is only a party of puppets in the hand of Turkey and PKK.

And after 1999, when Öcalan betrayed all the Kurds, not only Kurds in Turkey, but Syrian Kurds who were engaged in the party and suddenly learned that their leader is a good Turk, a admirator of Atatürk... After having insulting and trying to kill Barzani and Talabani as "traitor" for they collaborated with Turkey, and giving good excuses to Turkish army to enter in Southern Kurdistan, the same man worked only for Turkish Governement and beg pardon to Turkish mothers ! No other Kurdish leaders is a such shame for Kurds...

No matter, who cares on öcalan ? But the PKK now, in Turkey, is working with mafia and Turkish forces to oppress and rackett Kurds, and prevent any political Kurdish party to negotiate and becomes a solid representative of Kurds in UE and for US. All they have as politicians are parrots without any kind of legitimacy (DEHAP had failed elections because of a unforgivable alliance with a Turkish party whose leader was responsible of "dirty war" in Kurdistan), these so-called "Kurdish voices" repeat only "Freedom for Öcalan". But if Öcalan would be a real leader, he would have said : "let me in prison but freedom for MY people " ! As Sheikh Saïd would have done, and Qazi Muhammad, or Mazlum Dogan !

So the PKK is a nuisance for the Kurdish question. All the first foundators of this party, all the first militants are dead, often killed by their own party or have fled and lived as clandestin... Now this party is only a mix of Colombian FARC and Peruvian Shining Path : half mafia half crazy fanatics, but without any political line, any real direction... They have lost everything, they wasted their former success, they are not able to gain anything for the benefit of Kurds, and they continue... They live in a Schizophrene world...

[tomjez]

Nothing to add. Except that

They did what the maquis did in France during the occupation...and yes they sometimes did things that are reprehensible...but so did the maquis...

When Jean Moulin (leader of the french resistance) was arrested by the gestapo (yes, he was in France trying to organize the fight, not waiting in a villa in London), he did not say "My mother is german". He died under torture...

that's I think the big difference.......

Dilsad I think we agree on most points. OK, PKK "gave back pride" to kurds, and I recognized that several times. But in Iraq or Iran they did not need PKK to know they are kurds, and to be proud about that!! So PKK "gave back pride" to kurds IN TURKEY, which is 15 millions out of 40 if I'm not mistaken...

One of the thing I strongly dislike with PKK is the fact they pretend to speak for all kurds.
but in North Kurdistan I have the feeling that kurdish identity only purpose is worshiping Apo. Going to south kurdistan is realy breathing fresh air, I did not meet anybody trying to convince me that Massoud Barzani is a half god...

And for Apo being tortured in jail...Yes he was! THEY SHAVED HIS MOUSTACHE!!!!!!

if you don't care about apo, why do you have a knee-jerk reaction every time someone you perceive as PKK supporter asks a theoretical question about him or PKK

Good point It's not I don't care, it's just I would like it not to be an issue anymore. And yes I'm "reactionnary", "reactionnary" in PKK language is "not agreeing with us", like "counter revolutionnary" during the terror in France in 1793...

Again, what is important is not the pkk or apo, but the legacy; and it would be a shame and a dis-service to all the "30000" people that died to reduce that 20+ struggle to a simple man that went crazy , and crazier under turkish hands...

1) True

2) He was crazy before

3) About this 30000 : Turks say PKK killed 30 000 turks, PKK say turks kill 30 000 Kurds...I'm not sure all 30 000 (and we know much more died) were happy to die for Apo..

[Dilsad]

Well De Gaulle was living in a villa in London...and he returned as a hero and was elected president of the republique...and kept France as a colonial power...

As for the pkk giving back the pride to the kurds, yes I agree it was mainly in turkish-occupied-kurdistan. Thought it also gave an alternative to the mainly nepotic oriented puk and pdk...
I'm glad it is a cup of frsh air to go in iraqi-occupied-Kurdistan...but they are the ones that kept two separate governements for the past 15years...remember...so did you need to get two different visas to go fromone side to the next?

Hell you can't even call one side from the other with your cell phone...nepotism and favoritism are king and queen...
Now of course they have done great things as well, they were able to enshrine kurdish, kurdistan and "some" of the interest of the kurds into the new occupying-constitution...which is a lot...
I haven't read all of your postings, but from what i have read it seems that you have not criticized Barzani or Talabani or like I used to call them (sorry Diri) Barzbani...as much as you have praised them...come on use some of you analytical skills on them...too....

Vive la Bretagne Libre! et la corse et l'alsace et les pays basque ...la reunion martinique...waow...la liste est longue....

Dilsad.
pleasssssse take the red pill....

[Diri]

In my oppinion PKK isn't hated by the West - "outsiders" - in my oppinion - the matter isn't about hating... It is about interests - the PKK - does not serve the West - and therefore does not recieve support from the West...

When Mela Mustefa Barzanî Nemir turned his back on Soviet and proclaimed - "I want Kurdistan to be the 51st state!" - he did what was needed for Southern Kurds too survive - he did it in Kurdish interests----> And people like APO - did the OPPOSITE - he did what was in HIS interests...

Kurdish interests are not in Soviet - and Kurdayetî is not in a dead cause - even Stalin knew that the Soviet era was a phase - and that there is no room for communism in the international community...

"Leaders" like APO - who do not even speak Kurdish, who don't demand Kurdistan, who don't profile and promote their culture and history - are doomed... They are not working for Kurdistan or Kurds... They are puppets in the Turkish, Persian and Arab world...

And you know what is worse? They are IGNORED in the Western world - and sympathy in their cause (idolizing themselves) does not exist...

You will however see the Western world sympathize for Southern Kurds, Eastern Kurds and Western Kurds... Because their part of Kurdistan - is not victim to egoist fools who care about nothing, but their neck...

Sympathy for Kurdayetî is in the eyes of the beholder - Westerners symapthize with the homeless child, the raped daughter and the hanged son - not with the donkey on Imrali...

[Dilsad]

Hi Diri,

don't know what you mean by the"west sympathizes with the southern kurds".

There are been more delegations going to turkish-occupied-kurdistan than to iraqi-iranian-syrian-occupied-Kurdistan (ask Piling). We in fact do not hear anything about what has happened during the demonstration in Mahabad or in syrian-occupied kurdistan...

Now, may be this has to do with the fact that in Iraqi-occupied-Kurdistan, the "west" sees kurds fightinhg each other? I mean have they actully consolidated the two governement? 15 years!!! this is more than the life span of the pkk...the one that actually cared about kurdistan.

The truth is that the "west" (as in the governements) do not care at all about the Kurds. The british were the first to use chemical weapons on us, and later, the european-american helped Saddam gazing us one more time.
The "west" as in the people, I believe, would care about our suffering if they knew...but that doesn't mean anything....

So the west will not care whether you are the hanged in turkish-iraqi-iranian-syrian-occupied-Kurdistan...nore will they care if you are the donkey on Imrali or the lap dogs in Erbil and Suleymaniye....ooops sorry in Baghdad and Ankara...

Dilsad.

[tomjez]

so did you need to get two different visas to go fromone side to the next?

You don't need a visa at all with european passport actually. To go from one side to the next we just passed a checkpoint, like every 25 kms on the roads.

LOL Barzbani

I haven't read all of your postings, but from what i have read it seems that you have not criticized Barzani or Talabani or like I used to call them (sorry Diri) Barzbani...as much as you have praised them...come on use some of you analytical skills on them...too....

I don't know a lot about south kurdistan, so I don't pretend giving my advice too much
But on a very neutral point of view, it looks better on the south kurdistan side of the border....

[Diri]

Hi Diri,

don't know what you mean by the"west sympathizes with the southern kurds".

There are been more delegations going to turkish-occupied-kurdistan than to iraqi-iranian-syrian-occupied-Kurdistan (ask Piling). We in fact do not hear anything about what has happened during the demonstration in Mahabad or in syrian-occupied kurdistan...

Now, may be this has to do with the fact that in Iraqi-occupied-Kurdistan, the "west" sees kurds fightinhg each other? I mean have they actully consolidated the two governement? 15 years!!! this is more than the life span of the pkk...the one that actually cared about kurdistan.

The truth is that the "west" (as in the governements) do not care at all about the Kurds. The british were the first to use chemical weapons on us, and later, the european-american helped Saddam gazing us one more time.
The "west" as in the people, I believe, would care about our suffering if they knew...but that doesn't mean anything....

So the west will not care whether you are the hanged in turkish-iraqi-iranian-syrian-occupied-Kurdistan...nore will they care if you are the donkey on Imrali or the lap dogs in Erbil and Suleymaniye....ooops sorry in Baghdad and Ankara...

Dilsad.

I don't understand why PKK people always think that "either your with us or your against us"...

That is why I will not answer your post, Dilshad - because if I do answer it - I will have agreed to your charactirization of me as a "KDP(PUK supporter"...

I denounce all Kurdish parties... They ALL suck - some more than others... The PKK is at the bottom - and then come PUK closely followed by KDP...

I am not a party man - and under PKK controll - I would have been murdered as "dangerous intellectual" - because I have a BRAIN - I am not a SHEEP - I don't follow blindly...

I watched a program on ROJ TV - a documentary about a Kurd in Germany who took farewell with his family to go fight for PKK in the mountains - he was killed... That was why they made a documentary about him... Who with any sense and logic in their mind - would send their 18 year old boy to fight for APO and Leninism...? Rhetoric is everything... APO sucks because he talks about a "united Turkey" and he says he is Turkish - he doesn't speak Kurdish - and thanks to him Kurdish language is one step closer to extinction in Northern Kurdistan - if gaining "cultural rights within a democratic Turkey" (the PKK's goal) will cost me my language - I will not want it... I will not want destruction of Kurdish social system and thus, Kurdish CULTURE...

How many Kurds speak Kurdish in North Kurdistan? They speak the PKK's (or should I say KKK's?) language - Turkish...

[Diri]

I haven't read all of your postings, but from what i have read it seems that you have not criticized Barzani or Talabani or like I used to call them (sorry Diri) Barzbani...as much as you have praised them...come on use some of you analytical skills on them...too....

This is just STUPID...


No comment...

[Dilsad]

Hey come on Diri, I've found you with a better sense of humor...

As for your statement saying that I consider you against the pkk becasue you are not supporting it...
sorry bro but where in the hell do you get that from?

I only made notice that your hatred for apo and the pkk has blinded your analyses! Remember, we were talking about whether or not the west supported more the south or the north...divide to conquer....who was saying that.
Anyways, I do agree that you have been critical of all three main kurdish group, and I am not debating that with you, you know we've been through that already...

Now as far as apo and the pkk being responsible for a cultural genocide on your language, what in the hell are you talking about?
Remember that the first ever kurdish tv was set up by them, whether or not you liked the tv... And yes they did broadcast in turkish, and in kurmanci and in sorani and in dimili...

So I guess I am not getting where you got that from...

Anyways, let's not lie to each other, you have been critical of the PDK and the PUK, but you have some affinity on criticizing the pkk a little bit more ?
Don't you think?

Now, please don't insult all the brave women and men that fought and died for Kurdistan and for you and I!
Regardless if their head and leader was and is corrupt they all died for a great cause!

In turkish-occupied-Kurdistan, unlike in iraqi-syrian-iranian-occupied-Kurdistan, most kurds were and still are from the working class land with no school education. In fact kurds from other regions have a little elitisme when they compare themselves to the one from the north. That lack of school education made us only SPEAK KURDISH, no turkish. In fact the only time we learn turkish is when we are forced to go to the military...you should know better than that Diri, what are you talking about? what is going on?

Take the red pill...or take the blue pill...?

[tomjez]

That lack of school education made us only SPEAK KURDISH, no turkish. In fact the only time we learn turkish is when we are forced to go to the military...you should know better than that Diri, what are you talking about? what is going on?

that's not true, in kurdish cities most people speek turkish. And kurdish! I heard that children have difficulties to speak good kurdish though, and mix the languages...everyobdy has television, it's hard not to speak turk in turkey, even if you don't want to!

But I think kurmanci is far from being extinguished anyway!!

[Piling]

And refugees and uneducated children speak a awfull Turkurdish very hard to understand, for Turks as for Kurds who don't understan Turkish !

[Dilsad]

That is true too Tomjez, but we can't blame the pkk for that. Can we?

And if we are blaming the pkk for that....Hey soon we're gonna sound like some people arround the globe that blame and blamed everything on the jews...please notice that i said arround the globe...not just in the middle east...

Anyways, it is a tragedy to see that in our big city some kids have lost their kurdish language...but this is when we can blame the turkish state.

That is why it is so important to gain those cultural rights, because what has saved us so far is that a lot of people in the current cities are from 1st generation villagers...so the moms and the dads can't speak turkish well...but once that younger new generation goes to school and doesn't learn kurdish...their kids will loose their kurdish.

It only takes one generation to loose everything...
D...

[Diri]

Yes... As the two citizen of France have noted - Dilshad in fact is wrong when he says Kurds in Turkey speak good "Kurdish"... More like Piling said - "Turkurdish"---> Believe me - this is only realistic - when were you last in North Kurdistan, Dilshad? Have you noticed that ROJ TV is more a Turkurdish channel than a Kurdish channel?

Maybe it's because you yourself speak Turkurdish...? I don't know - I am just asking - because Kurds do not call Europe "Avrupa" and they do not speak as Turks - wannabe AVRUPALI language...

[Piling]

That is true too Tomjez, but we can't blame the pkk for that. Can we?

Yeah. When you are in the party you have to listen hours and hours and hours of bad Marxist stuff... in Turkish. If they have given only 1/3 of this time to learn Kurdish... I know their defense "a lot of people don't understand Kurdish bla bla bla..." But That is a WRONG argument for Kurds from Syria who don't speak Turkish had learned Turkish... and almost forget their own language...If they had not this stupid policy of "let's learn the language of ennemy", if they have IMPOSED Kurdish as working language instead of Turkish, at least guerilleros and activists could have spoken a good Kurdish... But no. Just an awful Marxo-Lenino-Turkish. And now Kemalo-Turkish according to the "new line".

Just a center like Navenda çandayê Mezopotamya in Istanbul makes a good work with courses for children, theater in Kurdish, and folklore and books, etc.

[Dilsad]

Oh my oh my,

we're all over the place...
First Diri you say that the pkk has endangered "your" language...
Then I say no, in fact they havn't...
Then Tomjez says, yeah but in Kurdish city they almost have forgotten their language..
Then I say Yes, true, but not the fault of the pkk, blame the turkish state...
Then you all say, but the pkk cadres had to learn turkish...
Yes blame them for that...but Diri, and Pilling let's be honest and go back to the original question...

Is the pkk responsible for the ethnocide ( that's for Piling that doesn't like the term cultural genocide ) in Kurdistan?

So please answer that...

No as far as my own Kurdish, so what if I do speak tukurdish...so what if I am even a turk! What if my mother is turk and my father is kurd?
Oh sorry you're pobably one of those that believe that nationality is transfert through the dad...
So what if my Mom is kurdish and my Dad is turkish?

Would it bother you that much? Diri? Would it make my arguments less true? And yours more true?

Hell you can even call me Armenian or Grec, becasue it seems that this is the Top Insult where you seem to come from...don't know, where you come from....I'm just asking! ...too...