Question for Rumtaya about Chaldeans

[heval]

You have told us many times in your posts that Chaldeans are simply Assyrians who are members of the Chaldean (Catholic) Church. However, many Chaldeans, who speak a dialect of Aramaic very similar to the Assyrian language (if I am not mistaken), claim that they are a distinct ethnic group and do not wish to be represented by Assyrian political groups.

Also, there are many Chaldeans that don't speak any Aramaic at all. Those Chaldeans, whose language spoken is Arabic, claim to be Arabs. I have met a few and questioned whether their true identity is Assyrian. The ones I met impatiently gave me a response and said they were Arabs who are Christians, not Assyrians.

My main question here is: Is it possible that some Chaldeans (particularly those who do not speak Aramaic) really are Arabs who converted to Catholocism and joined the Chaldean Church? Do Assyrians accept this?

[Rumtaya]

You have told us many times in your posts that Chaldeans are simply Assyrians who are members of the Chaldean (Catholic) Church. However, many Chaldeans, who speak a dialect of Aramaic very similar to the Assyrian language (if I am not mistaken), claim that they are a distinct ethnic group and do not wish to be represented by Assyrian political groups.

Also, there are many Chaldeans that don't speak any Aramaic at all. Those Chaldeans, whose language spoken is Arabic, claim to be Arabs. I have met a few and questioned whether their true identity is Assyrian. The ones I met impatiently gave me a response and said they were Arabs who are Christians, not Assyrians.

My main question here is: Is it possible that some Chaldeans (particularly those who do not speak Aramaic) really are Arabs who converted to Catholocism and joined the Chaldean Church? Do Assyrians accept this?

Good morning Kurdistan good morning my dear Heval. Diri just gaved me the link yesterday and what i first can tell you i had a big laugh yesterday thanks you just made a god end of the day for me hahahaha.

Ok here we go

The Name "Chaldean" wanst known in our Assyrian Nation till the Year ca. 1550 something around that as some part of the Nestorian Church(todays Assyrian Church of the East) made a unite witih the Roman Catholic Church. For that read this :

Chaldean Church and its Assyrian herit age


According to the Roman Catholic Church

Catholic Eastern Churches: From the Assyrian Church of the East ­ Chaldean Catholic Church

As early as the 13th century, Catholic missionaries ­ primarily Dominicans and Franciscans ­ had been active among the faithful of the Assyrian Church of the East. This resulted in a series of individual conversions of bishops and brief unions, but no permanent community was formed.

In the mid-15th century a tradition of hereditary patriarchal succession (passing from uncle to nephew) took effect in the Assyrian church. As a result, one family dominated the church, and untrained minors were being elected to the patriarchal throne.

When such a patriarch was elected in 1552, a group of Assyrian bishops refused to accept him and decided to seek union with Rome. They elected the reluctant abbot of a monastery, Yuhannan Sulaka, as their own patriarch and sent him to Rome to arrange a union with the Catholic Church. In early 1553 Pope Julius III proclaimed him Patriarch Simon VIII "of the Chaldeans" and ordained him a bishop in St. Peter's Basilica on April 9, 1553.

The new Patriarch returned to his homeland in late 1553 and began to initiate a series of reforms. But opposition, led by the rival Assyrian Patriarch, was strong. Simon was soon captured by the pasha of Amadya, tortured and executed in January 1555. Eventually Sulaka's group returned to the Assyrian Church of the East, but for over 200 years, there was much turmoil and changing of sides as the pro- and anti-Catholic parties struggled with one another. The situation finally stabilized only on July 5, 1830, when Pope Pius VIII confirmed Metropolitan John Hormizdas as head of all Chaldean Catholics, with the title of Patriarch of Babylon of the Chaldeans, with his see in Mosul.(Yes and we know that Mousl(Nineveh) was a city of Babylon empire or hmm nooooo its the Capital of Assyrian Empire hehe.)
The Chaldean Catholics suffered heavily from massacres during World War I (1918) when four bishops, many priests, and about 70,000 faithful died.

The location of the Patriarchate shifted back and forth among several places over the centuries, but gained a measure of stability after it was set up at Mosul in 1830. In 1950 it moved to its present location in Baghdad after substantial migration of Chaldean Catholics from northern Iraq to the capital city.

The Chaldean Catholic Church's relationship with the Assyrian Church of the East has improved dramatically since the signing of a joint christological agreement between the Pope and the Assyrian Patriarch in Rome in November 1994. In August 1997 the Holy Synods of the two churches formally instituted a commission for dialogue to discuss pastoral cooperation at all levels [see Assyrian Church of the East].

Chaldean candidates for the priesthood study at St. Peter's Patriarchal Seminary in Baghdad. It no longer grants advanced degrees. There are centers offering courses in theology for the laity in Baghdad and Mosul. A proposal to set up a Catholic university in Iraq is being considered.

Today the largest concentration of these Catholics remains in Baghdad, Iraq. There are ten Chaldean dioceses in Iraq, four in Iran, and four others in the Middle East. The Chaldean (or East Syrian) liturgy is in use, with the addition of a number of Latin customs. The liturgical language is Syriac.

There are now two Chaldean Catholic dioceses in the United States. The Eparchy of St. Thomas the Apostle of the Chaldeans was establshed in 1982, and is under the leadership of Bishop Ibrahim Ibrahim (25585 Berg Road, Southfield, Michigan 48034). It has five parishes in the Detroit area and two in Chicago. The Eparchy of St. Peter the Apostle of the Chaldeans in San Diego (established in 2002) has six parishes in California and one in Arizona, and is headed by Bishop Sarhad Jammo (1627 Jamacha Way, El Cajon, California 92019). The Patriarchal Vicar for Chaldean Catholics in Australia and New Zealand, who have two parishes in the Melbourne and Sydney areas, is Msgr. Zouhair Toma, who resides at 66-78 Quarry Road, Bossley Park, NSW 2176. In other areas of the diaspora, Chaldeans are under spiritual supervision of the local Latin ordinaries


Just go ask the Roman Catholic Chruch my dear they will tell you that Chaldeans arent the Chaldeans of the old time its just a Name given to make a spilt between the Assyrians.

I hope your question is answered!

[Rumtaya]

Something what i have to say maybe you guys dont like to hear it but if that will stay so and we will have two Names Chaldean and Assyrians thatn you guys are the big winner in this match because the Nineveh Plains if fully of Catholic(chaldean) Assyrians so you could say that they arent native to Ninevh and their placei s south of Iraq and you can have these lands.

By the way that is why many Kurds dont have something against that Name but its a lie and its falsing the History.

But hey if the Chaldean stay so and you got the Nineveh Area ill be the first one who claps for the Kurds and the first one who will gonna kick the Catholic Assyrians asses around .

[Vladimir]

But hey if the Chaldean stay so and you got the Nineveh Area ill be the first one who claps for the Kurds and the first one who will gonna kick the Catholic Assyrians asses around .

You are going to do that from Germany?

[Rumtaya]

You are going to do that from Germany?

No man why from germany? I dont have such a long leg haha.

You know it would be so easy if Assyrians wouldnt pay so much attetion to the Churches and their leader but the Church is ruling thats why we have our problem with the names.

[heval]

Well, you seem like you're in a good mood. Thanks for the detailed response... but I still have a question...

Many Chaldeans today claim an Arab identity. Is it possible that some of the members of the Chaldean Catholic Church are indeed Arabs? And were members of the Assyrian Church strictly Assyrians, or were there non-Assyrian members as well who had converted to Christianity?

Sorry if these questions seem repetitive (but I am interested in knowing the Assyrian perspective)...

[Rumtaya]

Well, you seem like you're in a good mood. Thanks for the detailed response... but I still have a question...

Many Chaldeans today claim an Arab identity. Is it possible that some of the members of the Chaldean Catholic Church are indeed Arabs? And were members of the Assyrian Church strictly Assyrians, or were there non-Assyrian members as well who had converted to Christianity?

Sorry if these questions seem repetitive (but I am interested in knowing the Assyrian perspective)...

No just ask my friend i try to answer your questions.

First what i know yes that can be that there arent not only Assyrians in our comunity because we had a Syriac Culture which was based on christianaty and the aramic langauge so for that you can say there were pretty much people who belonged to that Culture Church that havent been orignalay Assyrians but that was till 1300 as the mongolians came and crushed the Assyrians.

From this time on Assyrians mostly have just beein with their self so only Assyrians of origin became part of that Syriac Cutlure.

Now direclty to your question that some Chaldeans claim to be Arabs that is more then wrong who ever did say that isnt saying that because he is rally Arab no he got some other intrestes and you have to know that there is a big rivality between our churches.

Its otherwise that todays mostly arabs in iraq or and syria arent really of arab origin more assimilated into Arabic culture and islam religion. But the chaldeans had all stand in their Passports Arabs well why not they had good connection to the al baath regime in iraq you just have to read saddams rebulidung of churches but only chaldean churches not Assyrian churches those one he destroied i think over 200.

I would say that 95% of the Assyrians are truly Assyrians and some 5% those one who assimilated into our culutre and adopot our language. So you have ot know that at the times of misinoaring people did care much about which nationality someone is they just tried to bring him the new faith and so the Assyrian Church had also nonAssyrian members.

hope i could helped you

[heval]

hope i could helped you

Thanks.