*** Burn Down Danish Flag in Arbil

[Mosul]

Why was Kurds edited from this post title??/


hahhahaha omg you people are in such denial


According to the Erbil-based Kurdish weekly, Midiya, the demonestration was organised by the Kurdistan Islamic Union, the Kurdish Islamic Union (Yekgrtu) and the Kurdistan Islamic Group (Komall), to protest the publication of cartoons depicting Prophet Mohammad in Danish newspapers.


This means that it was a Kurdish Protest people, lol this forum is starting to look facist, editing news. wtf!

[tomjez]

I thought this guy was banned.

Mosul (sally???) nobody denies it is KURDS who attacked PUK and KDP headquartes in Erbil and killed 60 people. You must be proud abou that, great victory for Islam indeed.

And demonstrating along with the grey wolves?? waaah! I'm sure the majority of Kurds in southern kurdistan will soon follow you and yell against the Kafir "Kurdistan, Ya sev ya terket!" (yes in turkish, like your fascist grey wolves friends... "either you like it, or you leave it"

[Rubar]

As you said it is a union of Islamic countries. All countries are political entities with specific purposes, not a council of religious representatives.
I am sure they did not submit any resolutions about Checenya or Uyghur Turks or many others.

ARE YOU SURE! I am sorry but you are a moron that is incapable of understanding what you read. I was very clear about the fact that they expressed full support for all Muslims in every single part of the world.

You can pray in Kurdish if you want. People pray in turkish in Turkey although no Turk bothers to show up to pray.

praying to God is not allowed in any other Language. You comments obviously demonstrate you ignorance of Islam.

Secondly you seem to confuse Islam with Christianity. Islam does not have a central religous authority like Christianity.

WHat the hell was the Khaliphat? YOu ignorant moron. Go and learn about your own religion before making such stupid comments. I apologies to the other members of this forum for the language I have used. However, I am amazed at the ignorant comments that are being made. please forgive me.

If you want to change Islam try changing yourself not by degrading any religion. If people change, religion cahnges too. Besides, do not be stupid to believe that religion would change in a trival society no matter if it is kurdish or arabic. Tribal leaders need religion to control people, be it christianity or islam.

I am not Muslim, I am an atheist, I do not need to change. What needs to change is Islam. If you can not compherend the link between absolute devoution to islam and the lack of progress in Islamic societies then I am afraid you are part of the problem. Do not blaim any body but people such as yourselves in the state that Muslims are in.

Lastly, I am not a devout muslim or any expert on religion. But I can not stand poeple blaming all thing they do not like about their poeple on a religion.

If you cannot stand people blaiming all things in Islam, then GO and learn about islam. May be people that are blaming islam have a point that an ignorant moron such as yourself cannot appretiate. Most importantly, dont you think it is very stupid of you to get on the defensive and then declare complete ignorance?

Just for the record, I do not simple blaim everything on Islam, there are many aspects of Tribal society that needs to be changed. However, that does not mean that Islam is also part of the problem.

[piskrt]

WHat the hell was the Khaliphat? YOu ignorant moron. Go and learn about your own religion before making such stupid comments. I apologies to the other members of this forum for the language I have used. However, I am amazed at the ignorant comments that are being made. please forgive me.

Khaliphat was just a symbolic person who was of no use. He did not have a fraction of powers an ordinary pope has. Most of the muslims did not listen to him in WW1, indeed. And, lastly it was abolished a century ago.

I am not Muslim, I am an atheist, I do not need to change. What needs to change is Islam. If you can not compherend the link between absolute devoution to islam and the lack of progress in Islamic societies then I am afraid you are part of the problem. Do not blaim any body but people such as yourselves in the state that Muslims are in.

Here you reveal your true personality. You are not a muslim but an ordinary dishonest s.o.b who attcks islam in order to satisfy yourself. Besides, if you are not a muslims why do you spend your times slandering it. You are already not a part of it. You do not have a stake in it.

Just for the record, I do not simple blaim everything on Islam, there are many aspects of Tribal society that needs to be changed. However, that does not mean that Islam is also part of the problem.

People like you are part of the problem. I do not know if you are kurdish or just a scumhead who hangs out here to waste time, but it is clear that you do not know even little tenants of islam. You can not even stand for little criticism and starts yelling out "MORON" to anyone who critices you.

[Piling]

So people who are not muslims have'nt the right to criticize Islam ? But Islamists in Kurdistan pretend to rule society according to their belief, even if people are agree or not. Then an atheist Kurd should accept a political and social project that he does not like without protesting ?

Democracy is the right to critic everything, and nothing is "sacred" in debates.

[piskrt]

So people who are not muslims have'nt the right to criticize Islam ? But Islamists in Kurdistan pretend to rule society according to their belief, even if people are agree or not. Then an atheist Kurd should accept a political and social project that he does not like without protesting ?

Democracy is the right to critic everything, and nothing is "sacred" in debates.

If you have ever read his posts you would see that he is not criticisng but slandering.

[Rubar]

Here you reveal your true personality. You are not a muslim but an ordinary dishonest s.o.b who attcks islam in order to satisfy yourself. Besides, if you are not a muslims why do you spend your times slandering it. You are already not a part of it. You do not have a stake in it.

Muslims (all manifestations) propose a certain way of life. This naturally comes into conflict with other ways of life such as Democracy. As a Kurd I have the right to challenge the Muslim proposal and as it is required demand reform within islam. This demand is the precondition for any form of democratic society. Now you can give me the normal nonsense that some how Islam does not come into conflict with democracy. I do not buy it. If you think otherwise go and read about islam before making emotional reactions to other peoples arguments.

People like you are part of the problem. I do not know if you are kurdish or just a scumhead who hangs out here to waste time, but it is clear that you do not know even little tenants of islam. You can not even stand for little criticism and starts yelling out "MORON" to anyone who critices you.

I do not like to insult people. However, if you require respect than you will have to act accordingly. If you don't want me to treat you like a Moron, then please go and demonstrate to me why you are not a moron, which will require you to read an argument before replying to it. I will be happy to be proven wrong. What irritates me the most is the predominantly emotional reaction wihtou any substance to any kind of argument criticising Islam. I went through half of my high school education in Turkey where religious classes were compulsory, so don't accuse me of not knowing Islam. besides i do not think those classes actually teach islam. If you want to know the true islam you will have to research it yourself. But that will require the courage to face very difficult issues. Most importantly it requires a questioning mind that does not hesitate to challenge its prejudices.

[piskrt]

Muslims (all manifestations) propose a certain way of life. This naturally comes into conflict with other ways of life such as Democracy. As a Kurd I have the right to challenge the Muslim proposal and as it is required demand reform within islam. This demand is the precondition for any form of democratic society. Now you can give me the normal nonsense that some how Islam does not come into conflict with democracy. I do not buy it. If you think otherwise go and read about islam before making emotional reactions to other peoples arguments.

Yes, that is the essence of all religions. I do not know if you ever had a chance to read Torah but I can assure you that Torah has much stricter rules concerning human life. The bottom line is, state should be independent from all religious doctrines be it christianity, judaism or islam. The state shoulb secular albeit not a very staunch one.

I went through half of my high school education in Turkey where religious classes were compulsory, so don't accuse me of not knowing Islam. besides i do not think those classes actually teach islam. If you want to know the true islam you will have to research it yourself. But that will require the courage to face very difficult issues. Most importantly it requires a questioning mind that does not hesitate to challenge its prejudices.

Well, I have been through that courses too. And, believe or not our religious teacher was an atheist. And, I understand your emotions. You want to take the easy way and blame everything on Islam like many Turks have done. However, by doing that you lose your credibility. You do not have an interest in reforming Islam, you have an interest in doing so. If you have lived in Turkey, you also know how stupidly conservative kurds are. The polygamy, honour killings, stoning uncovered girls are daily routines among kurds who live in southeast. If you want to reform islam, you should start criticisng these attitudes before blaming everything on Islam.
This behaviour is unfortunately the norm almost every nationalists of every nation. Turkish nationalists hate Islam, kurdish nationalists hate Islam. They should understand that religions is a part of culture and they should reform their society before criticisng religion.

[piskrt]

Muslims (all manifestations) propose a certain way of life. This naturally comes into conflict with other ways of life such as Democracy. As a Kurd I have the right to challenge the Muslim proposal and as it is required demand reform within islam. This demand is the precondition for any form of democratic society. Now you can give me the normal nonsense that some how Islam does not come into conflict with democracy. I do not buy it. If you think otherwise go and read about islam before making emotional reactions to other peoples arguments.

Yes, that is the essence of all religions. I do not know if you ever had a chance to read Torah but I can assure you that Torah has much stricter rules concerning human life. The bottom line is, state should be independent from all religious doctrines be it christianity, judaism or islam. The state shoulb secular albeit not a very staunch one.

I went through half of my high school education in Turkey where religious classes were compulsory, so don't accuse me of not knowing Islam. besides i do not think those classes actually teach islam. If you want to know the true islam you will have to research it yourself. But that will require the courage to face very difficult issues. Most importantly it requires a questioning mind that does not hesitate to challenge its prejudices.

Well, I have been through that courses too. And, believe or not our religious teacher was an atheist. And, I understand your emotions. You want to take the easy way and blame everything on Islam like many Turks have done. However, by doing that you lose your credibility. You do not have an interest in reforming Islam, you have an interest in doing so. If you have lived in Turkey, you also know how stupidly conservative kurds are. The polygamy, honour killings, stoning uncovered girls are daily routines among kurds who live in southeast. If you want to reform islam, you should start criticisng these attitudes before blaming everything on Islam.
This behaviour is unfortunately the norm almost every nationalists of every nation. Turkish nationalists hate Islam, kurdish nationalists hate Islam. They should understand that religions is a part of culture and they should reform their society before criticisng religion.

[Rubar]

Yes, that is the essence of all religions. I do not know if you ever had a chance to read Torah but I can assure you that Torah has much stricter rules concerning human life. The bottom line is, state should be independent from all religious doctrines be it christianity, judaism or islam. The state shoulb secular albeit not a very staunch one.

I have never heard of any Jewish Council taking an Fathwa against anybody for publishing any kind of book or article. As a matter of fact I am quite proud of the fact that the first female rabbi came from Kurdistan (Asaneth Barazani). The first femal Hoca would be nice as well, if we can get it. However, the similarity is more with Christian middle ages.

I do not care if some one chooses to have strict way of life. My concern is that Islam takes it upon itself to discipline people. I don't mind a Jew living a very conservative life right next door to me as I would not mind a Muslim living a conservative life. What I have a problem is when they try to impose their strict way of life to me. That violates my freedom. Now please do not tell me that Jew's impose their way of life on others. They don't even do that in Israel. Whereas Muslims try to impose it to others. As someone who has lived in a Muslim country I presume that you know that drinking alcohol is a major issue. It is not a case in which they simple believe that you will burn in hell. Personally I don't mind people believing that I will burn in Hell, as long as they do not turn this world into hell for me. Muslims want to forfid anyone from drinking, if you lived in an islamic society you would not doubt this. So the reason why I request Islam to reform is because of these reasons. They have to learn to tolerate differences. if they don't well we have a problem and I am surely not going to back down. Despite the fact that the notion of progress is rather unpopular in these postmodern times, I continue to believe in the ideals of progress that originated from modernity. So in order to progress we have to challenge the problematic aspects of our society.

finally, i do not criticise islam because of hatred towards my people. I criticise Islam because I believe my people deserve to live in a better world. Whatever some reactionary Shek might say, my people deserve the same freedoms and standard of living as developed capitalist countries.


regards

Rubar

[piskrt]

I have never heard of any Jewish Council taking an Fathwa against anybody for publishing any kind of book or article. As a matter of fact I am quite proud of the fact that the first female rabbi came from Kurdistan (Asaneth Barazani). The first femal Hoca would be nice as well, if we can get it. However, the similarity is more with Christian middle ages.

Well, they do not issue fatwas but they make it virtually imposible for anyone to criticise Judaism. Try it and see it. If you try to criticise Judaism you would be probably marginalised, booted from your career and you may end up in a messy position. In Israel, I do not know but as far as I know, criticisng Judaism is considered as an anti-semitic behaviour and has very painful repercussions.

My concern is that Islam takes it upon itself to discipline people. I don't mind a Jew living a very conservative life right next door to me as I would not mind a Muslim living a conservative life. What I have a problem is when they try to impose their strict way of life to me.

Well, in fact the State does that. That is why I favor a moderately secular state over a religious one. Besides as I said before, in tribal soiceties religion makes it easier for masters to reign.

Now please do not tell me that Jew's impose their way of life on others. They don't even do that in Israel.

I gave Judaism as an example not because I have anything to do with Jews. And to Israel, actually they impose some part of their Judaic cultures on ordinary people. Israel is a jewish state and religion plays an important role in the functioning of the state.

I criticise Islam because I believe my people deserve to live in a better world. Whatever some reactionary Shek might say, my people deserve the same freedoms and standard of living as developed capitalist countries.

As I said before Islam is not to blame for that. No tribal society be it kurdish or arabic, christian or muslim would be developed and capitalist. To think that is insane. Wşthout breaking down the social model of kurds, no matter what you think, majority of the kurds would live in poverty.

[Diri]

Bravo guys...

You are holding an interesting disucussion... I will start reading it when you are done dicussing

[Rubar]

Well, they do not issue fatwas but they make it virtually imposible for anyone to criticise Judaism. Try it and see it. If you try to criticise Judaism you would be probably marginalised, booted from your career and you may end up in a messy position. In Israel, I do not know but as far as I know, criticisng Judaism is considered as an anti-semitic behaviour and has very painful repercussions.

I am not claming there are no fundamentalist Jews. Indeed as Israeli leaders themselves have made it clear there are Jewish terorist as well. However, what I respect most about Israel and Jewish community is the strong critical self reflection that exists within them. I think Kurds can learn alot from that. For example the fact that Israeli elite commandos refuse to participate in operations in occupied territories (similar to Israeli pilots) needs to be appreciated. All over the world, wherever you go elite commandos are killing machines. They do not think, they simply follow orders. The existence of commandos that think critically highlights a society that nutures critical thinking. If for nothing else, Israeli society should be respected for this reason.

I tend to think this has to do with religion. I have not been to Israel yet, however from my experience in India I have noticed similarity. There is a strong argumantative culture in India. Obviously there is a link to Hinduism. This does not mean there are no Hindu extremists. It merely points to the fact that a certain kind of religion can facilitate a more tolerant society. Now, may be the reason jews are critical of each other is becuase of years of oppression, I can only speculate. In similar line to Max Weber's argument that Protestant work ethic and the rise of capitalism are intrinsically linked, I tend to consentrate on the ideological barriers to progress. However, I do also agree with the need to change the material conditions etc. as argued by Marx. So in a way both ideological and material conditions need to be taken into consideration. However, this is far reaching project that will take at least a few Phd thesis.

I gave Judaism as an example not because I have anything to do with Jews. And to Israel, actually they impose some part of their Judaic cultures on ordinary people. Israel is a jewish state and religion plays an important role in the functioning of the state.

THat is my point. Religion plays an important role in sustaining a society that critically self-reflects. I think this is important. Why this is so in Israel and to a smaller extent in India needs to be investigates. There is definitely a link. However, as mentioned earlier it does not imply that there are no extermist and fundamentalist etc. As a Jewish friend of mine had said, some Jewish extremists in Israel do not permit the use of transports during Sabbath. However, they are doing there own secular versus religious debate (or some might call it battle). The point is what are we doing. All ways being on the defensive and running back into a little cocoon is not going to get as any far. So what I am arguing is for critical self-reflection that genuinely lacks in Islamic societies. In order to achieve this one will need to move beyond the absolute boundaries laid down by Quran.

As I said before Islam is not to blame for that. No tribal society be it kurdish or arabic, christian or muslim would be developed and capitalist. To think that is insane. Wşthout breaking down the social model of kurds, no matter what you think, majority of the kurds would live in poverty.

What you are trying to do is lay the blaim on tribal society and exonerate Islam. I am not arguing that tribal society should be left in tack and only Islam should be targeted. By progress I mean the destruction of tribal bonds and the creation of a nation state. However, this does not happen in isolation. There needs to be new interpretations of religious beliefs that are more compatible with modern way of life. it is in this sense that I call for reform in Islam. You might be an individual that believes Quran has all the answers. I don't. Indeed I go one step further and argue that Islam in its current manifestation comes into direct conflict with Modern way of life. THe alcohol example that i gave earlier is just one simple example. There is many ways in which Islam infringes upon invidual space and violates individual freedom. As an atheist I will go further, however, for practical purposes what we need is an interpretation of islam (what we might call Kurdish centric Islam) that is to a reasonable approximation not in conflict with ideals of modern liberal democracy. THe Kurdish Shek who was killed by Syrian State apparently developed a more liberal interpretation of Islam. I do not know much about his teachings and I only heard about him after his murder. But from what the media and journalist described him apparently his interpretation of Islam was based around the notion of individual choice, some what a liberal Muslim. I think such moves should be supported.

You might argue like some Muslims, that somehow Islam is essentially not in conflict with democracy. If this leeds you to interprete islam in a moderate way than I have no problem. However, most individuals employ such an argument to mystify and masquerade islam and thereby prevent critical self-reflection within Islam. This is the reason why most Muslims only pay lip service to democracy. It is only by internalising democratic principles and developing a new synthesis that Islam can truelly come out from the dark ages.

[piskrt]

tend to think this has to do with religion. I have not been to Israel yet, however from my experience in India I have noticed similarity. There is a strong argumantative culture in India. Obviously there is a link to Hinduism.

In fact India is seen by many as how a social model can retard a society from going forward until lately. Otherwise, how could an army which numbers in thousands can conquer such a populous and vast country and keep it under control for so long?

So what I am arguing is for critical self-reflection that genuinely lacks in Islamic societies. In order to achieve this one will need to move beyond the absolute boundaries laid down by Quran.

Yes, you are right. Self-critism is important but can not be done by putting the religon into your shooting target.

There is many ways in which Islam infringes upon invidual space and violates individual freedom. As an atheist I will go further, however, for practical purposes what we need is an interpretation of islam (what we might call Kurdish centric Islam) that is to a reasonable approximation not in conflict with ideals of modern liberal democracy.

Agreed. But, this goal can not be reached by blaming everything on religion. Otherwise you would be no different than communists who laid all the blame on religion and than came under by the sword af catholism.

This is the reason why most Muslims only pay lip service to democracy. It is only by internalising democratic principles and developing a new synthesis that Islam can truelly come out from the dark ages.

Yep. But with the current socail factors this can not be done. No body gives up his power voluntarily. Even in Turkey the social model of Kurds survives in many cities, the other kurds are even more socially disintegrated. So, there is no easy way to this. You should try to reform your soicety WITHOUT swearing to religion.

[cheryl]

I do not know if you ever had a chance to read Torah but I can assure you that Torah has much stricter rules concerning human life.

I see we have a torah scholar here.