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Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:17 pm

Yes, in Zazaki also exist a passive-system with suffix:

Nûsra => it was writen------ Denûsrê => it is being writen

In Zazaki were this:

Nusîyo = It was written. Nusîyeno = It is being written.

In Zazaki do exit also other 2 forms:

Form 2:

ame nustene = it was written. yeno nustene = it is being written.

from "amayene" = to come. as in kurmanci "hatin". in persian: amadan.

Form 3 - only vor verbs with "do":
  • qise keno = he speaks.
  • qise beno = it is being speaken.
  • qise bî = it was speaken.
  • keno = does. as in kurmanci / sorani: dike / deked ("en" in zazaki = "di" in kurmanci / sorani).
  • beno = as in kurmanci / sorani: dibe / debed. see the parallels with english "being", its have the same root.
  • bî = as in kurmanci / sorani: bû. "qise kiribû" in kurmanci were in zazaki: qise kerdbî.
To your ideas:

A) Female Izafe in Kurmanji: Sorani can borrow this archaic feature; ex: gulA min, evinA min

This is so possible as that kurmancs borrow from english the "it". Sorani-speaker don't can imagine this beacuse sorani have no gender. In zazaki do also exist famle and man, too in the pronomes:

o = he, a = she. ey = him, aye = her. also in the izafe is a gender, in zazaki: gula mi = for feminin, gulê mi = for men.

The izafe-sytem in sorani is the best i think. Gender makes not much sence. It is not important if somebody says "roja min" or "rojî min". ok by humans or animals make its sence. But by dead objects i see not a sence.

Sorry for my bad english, i dont know so good english.

RE-adding (not adding) of those pronounes which Sorani lost, namely ''ez, tu, hun (in some Sorani regions pronounced as engo), wî/wê .
Nothing gramatical more (or at least I dont remember since they were not important)

the "ez" is old-iranic, it is als exist in zazaki and talysh (in azerbaycan). in parthic was this: "äz". in avesta: äzem. it comes from proto-indoeuropean: *eghom. in old-persian: edham or so. see d <-> z ( like "zan" vs. persian "dan" for "know"). also persian lost this pronomes.

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:44 pm

Sipas kekê Johny...

Interesting...


But I am not sure if losing sex is better than keeping it. It is what makes Kurmancî different from other neighbouring languages such as Persian and Turkish...

Semitic languages have much more complex pro-noun systems... They have dualistic pro-nouns as well... Hebrew had it too - but they've let go of it...
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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:21 pm

hi, teshekur kenam kekê diri. i think, that the idea of hussein muhammed is the best compromise to creat a standard language for the kurmanci- and sorani-speaker. if we think realistic, then we can see, that the gender is not makes very sence in dead objects. it is richness, if you give water or the sun a feminin? not for me. also the ergative in kurmanji (and zazaki) is superfluous.

like "i make": kurmanji: ez dikim, zazaki: ez kenam (di <=>en)
but in the past: kurmanji: min kir, zazaki: mi kerd

or "you kill me", were in kurmanji: tu min dikujî, in zazaki: ti mi kishenî (di <=> en)
but "you killed me", in kurmanji: te ez kusht, in zazaki: to ez kisht

You see the confusion. Such things are totally SUPERFLOUS / NEDLESS.

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:06 pm

I see your point...

But it's "Te ez kuştim" in Kurmancî (past tense: "you killed me")! :)

I agree to a certain extent - that we should simplify and make it more easily understandable... But I don't want this to be at the cost of the uniqueness of the language...
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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:20 pm

Diri wrote:I see your point...

But it's "Te ez kuştim" in Kurmancî (past tense: "you killed me")! :)

ups, i meand the basic form "te ez kusht", i dont know what is this in english. te ez kusthim were in zazaki: to ez kishtam.

greets

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Sirwan » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:04 pm

Johny Bravo wrote:Yes, in Zazaki also exist a passive-system with suffix:

Nûsra => it was writen------ Denûsrê => it is being writen

In Zazaki were this:

Nusîyo = It was written. Nusîyeno = It is being written.


That's interesting! this ya/yê exists in southern branch of southern Kurmanji (Kelhori, kermanshahi, xanaqini, ilami etc..) and in Hewrami.
In northern branch of southern Kurmanji (Sorani) this is pronouned as ra/rê.


Tell us please about definite suffixes (=the) in zazaki!

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Johny Bravo » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:58 pm

Sirwan wrote:That's interesting! this ya/yê exists in southern branch of southern Kurmanji (Kelhori, kermanshahi, xanaqini, ilami etc..) and in Hewrami.

Really? Can you give me examples? (sentences etc.)

Tell us please about definite suffixes (=the) in zazaki!

Example:

definite: lacek = means "the boy".
indefinit: lacek-ê = means "a boy"

definites get no suffixes, only indefinites.

indefinite plural: tayê lacek-i = some boys.
tayê = some, laceki = boys

how it is in sorani and kurmanci?

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:33 pm

Johny Bravo wrote:
Diri wrote:I see your point...

But it's "Te ez kuştim" in Kurmancî (past tense: "you killed me")! :)

ups, i meand the basic form "te ez kusht", i dont know what is this in english. te ez kusthim were in zazaki: to ez kishtam.

greets


In Kurmancî it is grammatically incorrect to write just "Te ez kuşt"... It is an incomplete sentence. It lacks the pro-noun suffix "-im"...

In Kurmancî (and Soranî) we can drop "ez" or "min" but we have to add the pro-noun suffix...

You can say: Kuştim

But not: Ez kuşt



A funny contrast between Soranî and Kurmancî is (please correct me if I am wrong, kak Sîrwan):

Soranî:
Min kûşt = killed me

Kurmancî:
Min kuşt = I killed

:roll:
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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:46 pm

Johny Bravo wrote:
Tell us please about definite suffixes (=the) in zazaki!

Example:

definite: lacek = means "the boy".
indefinit: lacek-ê = means "a boy"

definites get no suffixes, only indefinites.

indefinite plural: tayê lacek-i = some boys.
tayê = some, laceki = boys

how it is in sorani and kurmanci?


Kurmancî:

Definite: Law/Lawik / Kur/Kurik = The Boy
Indefinite: Lawek/Lawikek / Kurek/Kurikek = A Boy

Definite: Kiç/Kiçik / Qîz/Qîzik = The Girl
Indefinite: Kiçek/Kiçikek / Qîzek/Qîzekek = A Girl

Indefinite plural: Çend/Hindek law/lawik / kur/kurik = Some boys...

Çend = Some / "Sum of..."
Hindek = Some
Kur/Kurik Law/Lawik = Boy
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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Sirwan » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:07 pm

Really? Can you give me examples? (sentences etc.)


For example southern Kurdish:
Nûsya = it was writen, Enûsyê = it is being writen, Enûsya = it was being writen etc...
the same words in Sorani become:
Nûsra, Denûsrê, Denûsra, etc...

Example:


definite: lacek = means "the boy".
indefinit: lacek-ê = means "a boy"

definites get no suffixes, only indefinites.

indefinite plural: tayê lacek-i = some boys.
tayê = some, laceki = boys


Unfortunately I did not get your example. ''lacek'' means ''the boy'' or simply ''boy''?

how it is in sorani and kurmanci?


In Sorani as well as in most (if not all) southern dialects it's as following:

Jin = woman (simple)
Jinêk = a woman (indefinite)
Jineke = the woman (definite)
Jinekan = the women (definite plural)
Jinanêk = some women (indefinite plural)
Jinan = women (simple plural)

It's so regular and gramatically rich, isn't it?!

(only in some small southern dialects they pronoounce the ''k'' similar to ''g''.)

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Sirwan » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:15 pm

Diri wrote:
Johny Bravo wrote:
Tell us please about definite suffixes (=the) in zazaki!

Example:

definite: lacek = means "the boy".
indefinit: lacek-ê = means "a boy"

definites get no suffixes, only indefinites.

indefinite plural: tayê lacek-i = some boys.
tayê = some, laceki = boys

how it is in sorani and kurmanci?


Kurmancî:

Definite: Law/Lawik / Kur/Kurik = The Boy
Indefinite: Lawek/Lawikek / Kurek/Kurikek = A Boy

Definite: Kiç/Kiçik / Qîz/Qîzik = The Girl
Indefinite: Kiçek/Kiçikek / Qîzek/Qîzekek = A Girl

Indefinite plural: Çend/Hindek law/lawik / kur/kurik = Some boys...

Çend = Some / "Sum of..."
Hindek = Some
Kur/Kurik Law/Lawik = Boy


Diri please clarify what is the difference between kur and kurik!

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Sirwan » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:27 pm

Diri wrote:A funny contrast between Soranî and Kurmancî is (please correct me if I am wrong, kak Sîrwan):

Soranî:
Min kûşt = killed me

Kurmancî:
Min kuşt = I killed

:roll:

Not exactly Kak Diri; One have to use pronoun suffixes for all verbs in Sorani. Min kusht is imcomplete by itself in Sorani.
To say I killed you can say following alternatives:

Kushtim: (I killed)
Min Kushtim (I killed )

ewim kusht, (I killed him)
Min ewim kusht (I killed him)




One very interesting thing in Sorani is that object of past tense transitive verbs always agrees with the subject of the sentence!!

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:32 pm

Sirwan wrote:
Diri wrote:
Kurmancî:

Definite: Law/Lawik / Kur/Kurik = The Boy
Indefinite: Lawek/Lawikek / Kurek/Kurikek = A Boy

Definite: Kiç/Kiçik / Qîz/Qîzik = The Girl
Indefinite: Kiçek/Kiçikek / Qîzek/Qîzekek = A Girl

Indefinite plural: Çend/Hindek law/lawik / kur/kurik = Some boys...

Çend = Some / "Sum of..."
Hindek = Some
Kur/Kurik Law/Lawik = Boy


Diri please clarify what is the difference between kur and kurik!


Ser çawim kak Sîrwan,

Law / Kur / Kiç / Qîz = what you call the "Simple" forms - but which I have put under "definite" - because of uncountability = as in Arabic "Al-Awlaad" = "The Boy".

Let me illustrate the difference in examples:

1) Heke kiç hez'ke = If girl wants to (Simple form - "Kiç" = "Girl" = uncountable)
2) Heke kiçik hez'ke = If the girl wants to (Definite form)
3) Heke kiçek/kiçikek hez'ke = If a girl wants to (Indefinite form)

These are the regular forms - just switch the word "Kiç" with "Kur" (both are Simple forms) and keep the same suffixes...
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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Sirwan » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:37 pm

Diri wrote:
Sirwan wrote:
Diri wrote:
Kurmancî:

Definite: Law/Lawik / Kur/Kurik = The Boy
Indefinite: Lawek/Lawikek / Kurek/Kurikek = A Boy

Definite: Kiç/Kiçik / Qîz/Qîzik = The Girl
Indefinite: Kiçek/Kiçikek / Qîzek/Qîzekek = A Girl

Indefinite plural: Çend/Hindek law/lawik / kur/kurik = Some boys...

Çend = Some / "Sum of..."
Hindek = Some
Kur/Kurik Law/Lawik = Boy


Diri please clarify what is the difference between kur and kurik!


Ser çawim kak Sîrwan,

Law / Kur / Kiç / Qîz = what you call the "Simple" forms - but which I have put under "definite" - because of uncountability = as in Arabic "Al-Awlaad" = "The Boy".

Let me illustrate the difference in examples:

1) Heke kiç hez'ke = If girl wants to (Simple form - "Kiç" = "Girl" = uncountable)
2) Heke kiçik hez'ke = If the girl wants to (Definite form)
3) Heke kiçek/kiçikek hez'ke = If a girl wants to (Indefinite form)

These are the regular forms - just switch the word "Kiç" with "Kur" (both are Simple forms) and keep the same suffixes...


Interesting! but which suabdialect of Kurmanji is that? Shkaki?

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Re: Sorani + Kurmanci Mix = New Kurdish!

PostAuthor: Diri » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:37 pm

Sirwan wrote:
Diri wrote:A funny contrast between Soranî and Kurmancî is (please correct me if I am wrong, kak Sîrwan):

Soranî:
Min kûşt = killed me

Kurmancî:
Min kuşt = I killed

:roll:

Not exactly Kak Diri; One have to use pronoun suffixes for all verbs in Sorani. Min kusht is imcomplete by itself in Sorani.
To say I killed you can say following alternatives:

Kushtim: (I killed)
Min Kushtim (I killed )

ewim kusht, (I killed him)
Min ewim kusht (I killed him)


One very interesting thing in Sorani is that object of past tense transitive verbs always agrees with the subject of the sentence!!


Yes, Kak Sîrwan, that's what I said:

In Kurmancî (and Soranî) we can drop "ez" or "min" but we have to add the pro-noun suffix...


The rest of my post which you have quoted has nothing to do with that point.

I was refering to the lexical meaning of the sentence: "Min kuşt!".

What I asked you to correct was: does or does not "Min kuşt" equal "Killed me"? Because in Kurmancî it doesn't mean "Killed me" - it means "I killed (it)"...
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