Persian Loanwords in Kurdish

[Emanoelkurdistani]

Dirûd û Pate Le Hemûtan (Salute You All)

Unfortunately I am too busy and despite my hearty like to take part in the forum I cannot proceed to it frequently.

Regarding to this topic and your writings there are some points that I like to note:

@ Johny Bravo

Ez hêvîdaran waxt û demê to weş bo bira.

The antiquity of “dest” as a loan in the Northwestern Iranian languages antedates the current Kurdic languages since it’s found amongst Median words, where we were anticipating to find “zest” ! Also we find this loan almost in the all middle and modern Northwestern and Northeastern Iranian languages such as Parthian, Pashtu (lest < dest), and even Ossetic. So this word along with “dost” (friend) should be considered as exceptional borrowings from Old Persian (it’s wonderful while all Northwestern languages use Old Persian “dost” , in the Zoroastrian Persian we face a “zoş-“ of Northern origin !)

Northern (Kurmanci) Kurdish “gotin” is not a Persian loan in sooth! It’s obviously the shifted form of common Kurdish “wetin” > “wotin” > “gotin” . Since the present stem matches the current Southern and Central (Erdelani) Kurdish counterpart “bêj-” ~ “wêj-” / “wiş-”. While in the Persian “gotften”, present stem “gû-“ goes back to the Old Persian “geûb-“. This verb is borrowed by the Northern Iranian languages (Gilaki “gû(n)in” / “gû-”, Daylami “gûyin”/”gi-“, Mazandarani “be(g)otin”/”gi-“).

I have not heard of “birg” (wolf) neither I have read it in the Central and Southern Kurdish, but “wûrg”, “ferq”, “werg”, and “lû”. They mostly use “gûrg” or “gûrî” though.

“Bil” (flower) only exists in some Hewrami dialects (while “will” or “vill” are mainly used). The only trace of it in the Kurdish is “well” (blossom). Also Central (Sorani) Kurdish got an exclusive development: “goralle” (flower”) < “wor-alle” < “werd” < “veride”.

The Kurmanci “guherîn” and Sorani “gorrîn”/”gorrandin” should have nothing to do with Middle Persian since in Persian it’s “gerdîden”. The Persian “ger-“ is incapable of turning into Kurdish “guher-“ or “gorr-/gûwarr-“!! If I am not wrong it’s originally “vert-“ which turns into “vorr-“ in the Kurdic languages and then we get “gorr-“ in the Sorani (while Hewrami and Zazaki conservatively keep “vûrr-). Anyways, there has never ever been a “biherîn” in the Kurdish !!

Pure Kurdish word for “three” must not be “hîrê”. Since Kurdish (Kurmanci, Sorani, and Kirmaji) originally prefers to keep ancient “th-“ as “s”/”z”. Therefore “sirê” or “sirî” are better suggestions. Also I am not sure but maybe Sorani “-sir” and Kurmanci “-tir” in “besir/betir pêrar” (three years ago) are related to Avestan “thirî”. Also “sinjid”, an Iranian fruit, in Kurdish is called “sirînçik” while in Persian they call it “senjed” from Middle Persian “sinjid” (sîncîd). I guess the first parts “sirî-“ and “sê-/sî” have something to do with “three”. But it needs more work on its etymology yet. For now it’s just a rudimentary assumption. Also in a Classical Persian writing there is a “tîr-set” instead of “sî-sed” (three hundred) which is a Northwestern loan.

The Sorani and Kirmanji (Kelhûri, Leki, Gerrusi, Feyli) Kurdish have kept “wetin”/”witin”/”wûtin” in a “conservative manner” but Northern Kurdish (Kurmanci; except Şêx Bizinî “bêtin”) has developed it into “gotin” (as well as Mukryani Sorani “gûtin”). So the Sorani “witin” or “wûtin” are not of Southern Kurdish origin as well the Kurmanci “gotin” is not a Persian loan.

The present stem in the Mukryani Sorani “lê-“ could be a kin of the European “literal”, etc.

“Baj-“ or “batin” cannot be speculated as Pure Kurdish (Kurmanci, Sorani, Kirmanji). “Wêj-” and “wetin” are better to choose. In Kirmanci Kurdish (Kurmanci, Sorani, Kirmanji) the verb stems which contain a middle “-a-“ go through changing it into “-ê-“ (and latter “-î-“): “waj“ > “wêj”/”wiş”; “man” > “mên”/”mîn”, “stan” > “sên”/”sîn”; “xwan” > “xwên”/”xwîn”. Indeed Central (Sorani) Kurdish is more condign to refer this tendency (changing “-a-“ into “-ê-“) to it: Kurmanci “nav” , Kirmanji “naw”/”nam”/nûm”, Sorani “naw”/”nêw”/“nam”; Kurmanci “mîn-“, Kirmanji “mîn-“, Sorani “mên-“.Also initial “wa-“ sometimes change into “we-“ in Kurdish so original “wat-“ becomes “wet-“ and then “wit-“, “wêt”, “wot-“, “wût-“, “gût-“.

By the way you should quench your appetite to consider that every original “w” should turn into “b“ in Kurdish! In the Kirmanci Kurdish (Kurmanci, Sorani, Kirmanji) the original “w“ may turn into “b“, “f”, “g”, or it can simply stay in the way that it is! There is not any regulation to figure it out what exactly must happen to original “w” in the Kirmanci Kuridish (neither in the Persian). But generally the Southern (Kirmanji) and Central (Sorani) Kurdish dialects retain the original “w” (mainly ancient “v”) better than the Northern Kurdish: Kurmanci “ba”, Sorani “ba”, Kirmanji “wa”; Kurmanci “baran”, Sorani “baran/waran”, Kirmanji “waran”; Kurmanji “berf”, Sorani “befr/wefr”, Kirmanji “wefr”; Kurmanci “bûk”, Sorani “bûk/wewî”, Kirmanji “weyî/bewî”.

Well there are so many words containing “l” in Kurdish. Also I don’t think all the Proto-Indo-European “l” have been changed into “r” in the ancient Indo-Iranian languages (Avestan and Sanskrit).
As I previously mentioned there are no definite rules to refer to any Iranian languages. It means there are always exceptions and for instance you cannot say it with any certainty how come in Persian it’s “verz” from Avestan “verz” (Kurdish “werz”) while Kurdish “hêl-“ is believed to be a Persian loan from original “hêrz-“; and what for Persian has not changed “verz” (exercise) into “berd” or “bel” ?!! In Kurdish the original “rd” and “rz” are found as “l”, “r”, “rç”, etc.

In the Caspian Languages they use “ca” (from Old Persian “heça”) and “mên” or “der” for “in”. The Sorani and Kirmanji “le” and Zazaki “ra” are exceptions among Iranian languages. In Kirmanji Kurdish “je” is used too. Also Kurmanci “ji”/”je” and Hewrami “ce”/”çe”/”je” are from Avestan “heçe”.

“Avesta: agemet > Pahlavi: amet > Farsi: amed > Zazaki, Hawrami: ame
Avesta: agemet > Parthian: aget
Avesta: agemet > Pahlavi: amet > Proto-Kurmanci: *at > New-Kurmanci: hat”

Don’t you think we are better to contemplate that Kiramnci Kurdish “hat-“ is a kin of Parthian “agat-“?! Also it’s wonderfully “hat-“ in Baluchi too!


“You can see iranic words with "l" only in words, which are from Middle Persian (like GUL). Old Iranian don't knew this L-loud.#

All other words with L are loaned from Semitic or Mongolian. Or show me except of "le" (for "in) orther words in Kurdish, they are with L and not from Middle Persian”

Well since Proto-Kurdic language is inherently a Non-Iranian language (originating from Pre-Aryan languages), so there are some essential words containing “l” in the Modern Kurdic languages. The subsequent change of “rd”/”rz”/”r” into “l” is also an original tendency. You may find many Iranian and Non-Iranian loans containing “l” too.

“"leg" is also typical iranic, yeah.” < Leq, Laq, Lek are typically Kurdic words. No other Iranian languages present them. Also the English “leg” is believed to be Exclusive to English among the Germanic languages and its etymology is still obscure.

Also the Paul Ludwig’s table of Kurdic (Kirmanci, Hewrami, and Zazaki) and other Iranian languages is not indisputable. There are many obstacles before us on the way to achieve an accurate table. For example Ludwig puts “c” for Zazaki and “j” for Kirmanci while there are “j” and “z” in Zazaki too (as result of ancient “ç”, “g”, “c”)!! Ludwig doesn’t make the faintest mention that what for “c” should be the dominant progress in Zazaki as well as he doesn’t describe how come there are “gorale” (Per. gol), “gurçik” (Per. gordê), “virçik” (Per. çûl), “berz” (Per. bolend), “pird” (Per. pol), “pardêz” (Per. palîz), etc. in Kurdish if to turn “rd” and “rz” into “l” is the dominant progress in Kurdish ?! Also in Talyshi we have “hove” and “xole” (sister, xwehr-) at the same time! It’s really hard to hurdle these paradoxical obstacles.

@ Tshub

Hîwadarim kat û satî to xweş bê bira.

I stress it again that there is no definite rule to say if “z” always turns into “d” in Persian or “w” always becomes “b” in Kurdish and so on. But “zêmêstan” is not a loan since it’s also “zem-“ in the Old Persian but “zer” is a loan since it’s “derenye-“ in the Old Persian.

Borther, “zêndê” is not the p.p of “zîsten”! The p.p. of “zîstan” is “zîstê”. He has lived “û zîstê est” ~ Kurdish “ew jîyaw e”. The counterpart of Persian “zêndê” in Kurdish is “jînû” (look it up : farhange namhaye kordi dokhtaran va pesaran). Although we mostly use “zîndû”, “zindî” and “zînig”; which are derived from Middle Persian “zîndeg”.

“Erzan” is the Southwestern form of Northern “erjan”. In Persian “erzîden” is equivalent of Kurdish “hejîn” or “herjîn”. But Kurdish “herzan” is a Middle Persian loan.

Also among your mentioned Kurdish words I see no loans. Significant number of them are of Pre-Aryan origin (Hurrian, Hittite, Urartu, etc. ) probably.