Retention of Ancient "v"

[Quaere Verum]

Retention of Old Iranian "v" is a characteristic which is typically referred to Northwestern Iranian languages, in contrast with the bulk of modern Southwestern speeches in which this sound changes to either "b" or "g". Kirmanjí Kurdish (conventionally known as "Kurdish") got three main dialects, namely Northern (Kurmanjí), Central (Soraní), and Southern (Kirmajhí), which represent different trends in this case. If we exclude loans from Southwestern languages, Central and Northern dialects turn original "v" into "b" and "g", while the Southern dialect, as well as various Northern subdialects, preserve this sound as either "w" or "v". Unfortunately preeminent linguists such as McKenzie used to hold the vaguest idea about Southern dialect, nevertheless their knowledge regarding to Northern and Central dialects was absolutely incomprehensive. These facts have led their so-called scientific inferences to fail to match the truth on Kirmanjí Kurdish. Here are some examples of development of Old Iranian initial "v" in Kirmanjí Kurdish dialects:


Kurmanjí : Soraní : Kirmajhí : Old Iranian : Meaning

bez, vez : bez : wez : veze- : to run, to spring

baran : baran : waran : vare- : rain

berf : befir, wefir : wefr, wer : vefre : snow

ba : ba : wa : vate : wind

buz, vuz : boz : wiz : weze* : wych-elm

wér : wér : wér : víre : hero, brave

bín : bín, wín : win : veyne : to see

bes : bes, wús : bes, wes : vese : enough

beraz : beraz : weraz : veraze : boar, pig

ger : gerr : gerr, werr : verte : spin


Retention of "v" in Goraní (particularly Hewramí Kurdish) has biased some western scholars to consider retention of ancient "v" in Southern Kirmanjí as a Goraní influence. Here I compare the aforementioned as well as some more Southern Kirmanjí words with their Goraní (Hewramí) cognates (in case of availability):


Kirmajhí (Southern Kirmanjí) : Hewramí : Meaning

wez : vaz : to run, to spring

waran : varan : rain

wefr, wer : verwe : snow

wa : va : wind

wiz : narewen : wych-elm

wér : dilir : hero, brave

win : vín : to see

bes, wes : bes : enough

weraz : xuk : boar, pig

gerr, werr : gélay : spin

wayem : vaham : almond

wewí : veywe : bride

wí-, bí- : bé- : without (prefix)

[Johny Bravo]

The /g/-louds at Old Iranian /v/ are 99% of Middle Persian orign.

You can notice this on the /U/-louds, which are a typical Middle Persian shift of Old Iranian /e/ into /u/, like:

berten > burten, merten > murten, berdent > bulent, peres > purs

This v > g-shift is classified as Southwestiranian and has already peformed in the Middle Persian ege.

Nobody of the linguists say, that the v > b shift is Southwestiranian, so Kurdish can keep it, its the character of Kurdish.

V -> B is a common iranic shift, its the socalled "New Iranian loud shift".

I believe, that this shift was there at the end of the 10.th century and the Southern Kurdish /w/-louds can come of a /b/- > /w/ shifting, like in be > we (with) and many other shifts.

Because I think, also in Proto-Kurdish during the 10.th century this /b/-loud was existent.

Furthermore "berf" and "baran" are more beautiful than "wefr" and "waran".

[Quaere Verum]

The /g/-louds at Old Iranian /v/ are 99% of Middle Persian orign.

You can notice this on the /U/-louds, which are a typical Middle Persian shift of Old Iranian /e/ into /u/, like:

berten > burten, merten > murten, berdent > bulent, peres > purs

This v > g-shift is classified as Southwestiranian and has already peformed in the Middle Persian ege.

Nobody of the linguists say, that the v > b shift is Southwestiranian, so Kurdish can keep it, its the character of Kurdish.

V -> B is a common iranic shift, its the socalled "New Iranian loud shift".

I believe, that this shift was there at the end of the 10.th century and the Southern Kurdish /w/-louds can come of a /b/- > /w/ shifting, like in be > we (with) and many other shifts.

Because I think, also in Proto-Kurdish during the 10.th century this /b/-loud was existent.

Furthermore "berf" and "baran" are more beautiful than "wefr" and "waran".

I am not really up to give percentages in such an uncertain case, but there are already a considerable number of "g" examples within Kirmanjí Kurdish vocabulary for ancient "v" which are not of Middle Persian origin but original developments:

Soraní (subdialectal) "gunase" akin to Parthian "wínas", while Persian "gonah", Kurmanjí "guneh", and Middle Persian "wínah" as well as Hewramí "wína".

Kurmanjí "gotin", a cognate of Soraní "wútin" and Southern Kirmanjí "wetin".

Words such as "purs", "murd", "burd", "purd", etc. do not represent Middle Persian merely, since they exist in the Parthian lexicon too. Anyways, what is the point here?

The change "v" > "g" is also attested in a Northeastern Iranian language such as Khotanese Scythian and is by no means restrained to Middle Persian.

True or false, McKenzie explicitly speculates "v" > "b" change "out of Northwestern boundaries". I did not say Kirmanjí Kurdish should not keep such a change, since I believe most of its instances are due to a Scythian background. But as far as purer words exist, in such a wide range as a major dialect' lexicon, we should not be sticking with the changed ones for a standard form.

I see, but contrary to you I speculate "wefr" to be much more beautiful. Anyways rationally personal aesthetics is not a reliable criterion to standardize a language.

[Johny Bravo]

@Quaere Verum

It is not poissble that Northern Kurmanji has loaned first the deformed new Sorani word "wûtin", which is comes from "wetin" and changed it then to "gotin". Do you think, that milliions of Northern Kurmanjs has loaned "wûtin", which is totally new and comes from "wetin"?

In Northern Kurmanji were the word futhermore "bêtin".

"Gotin" comes simple from "goften", with the typical "f"-losing in Kurdish. And I don't say that its were Southwestiranian, "goften" is a common iranic word, it was in Avesta with the "geob-"-steme.

There is not a southwest/northwest loud-splitting in this word.

As example the words gurg, gul, gurchik shows the typical ve > gu change of Middle Persian.

[Quaere Verum]

Kurmanjí "gotin", a cognate of Soraní "wútin" and Southern Kirmanjí "wetin".

@Quaere Verum

It is not poissble that Northern Kurmanji has loaned first the deformed new Sorani word "wûtin", which is comes from "wetin" and changed it then to "gotin". Do you think, that milliions of Northern Kurmanjs has loaned "wûtin", which is totally new and comes from "wetin"?

Please look up the meaning of cognate.

In Northern Kurmanji were the word futhermore "bêtin".

It's originally "béjhtin" akin to Mukríyaní Soraní "wéjhtin", both derived from the present stem "wéjh"/"béjh".

"Gotin" comes simple from "goften", with the typical "f"-losing in Kurdish. And I don't say that its were Southwestiranian, "goften" is a common iranic word, it was in Avesta with the "geob-"-steme.

There is not a southwest/northwest loud-splitting in this word.

I have discussed it before but anyways to my knowledge it is originally an Old Persian verb, "geub-*", and not Avestan. It is reflected in today Persian "goft" / "guy-" and Gilaki "gunin" / "gu-". Kurmanjí "gotin" cannot be a derivative of this Old Persian verb since in no Kurmanjí varieties you may find a present stem resembling "gu-" or something like that, but "béjh" which is originated from another ancient root. Thus earlier borrowing from Middle or New Persian would be the only way possible to explain it, an explanation which itself is absolutely senseless since Modern Persian "o" (as in "goft") and Middle Persian "u" (as in "guft") are unexceptionally represented as "u" in Kurmanjí Kurdish (Kurmanjí "gul", Middle Persian "gul", New Persian "gol"), whilst the bulk of Kurmanjí subdialects have "gotin" instead of "gutin".

As example the words gurg, gul, gurchik shows the typical ve > gu change of Middle Persian.

It would be too much ado about nothing to discuss it any more regarding to what is discussed about it in the previous posts.