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Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat May 12, 2012 4:38 pm

Well they are 2800 years old, so were the indo-european invasions of the middle-east, so I wouldn't be suprised if they were Iranic tribes. Although it could be Hurrians aswell.

Apparently this is what the Gutians looked like, if this is the case they they probably were an Iranic tribe unmixed:
According to the historian Henry Hoyle Howorth (1901), Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired.[10][11][12][13] This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".[14][15] This racial character of the Gutians as blondes or being light skinned was also taken up by Georges Vacher de Lapouge in 1899 and later by historian Sidney Smith in his Early history of Assyria (1928).[16][17] Ephraim Avigdor Speiser however criticised the translation of "namrum" as "light colored". An article was published by Speiser in the Journal of the American Oriental Society attacking Gelb's translation.[18] Gelb in response accused Speiser of circular reasoning.[19] In response Speiser claimed the scholarship regarding the translation of "namrum" or "namrûtum" is unresolved.[20]

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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Sat May 12, 2012 4:41 pm

jjmuneer wrote:There is evidence for this? Are there any statistics on frequency of J2a and G2a in central Asia?
Lol what hybrid folk? What does J2a and R1a equal then? I think your getting confused bewteen the subcladed.
Just look at sub-racial types my friend now and you will see what I'm talking about.


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http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/106/121


Kalash (Nuristan population of north Pakistan next to Nuristan of northeast Afghanistan):

L3a - 22.7%
H1* - 20.5%
R1a - 18.2%
G - 18.2%
J2 - 9.1%
R* - 6.8%
R1* - 2.3%
L* - 2.3%

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201726a.html
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Sat May 12, 2012 4:44 pm

There's also very very much of Kurdish Aryan J2a in Tajikistan! :lol:
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat May 12, 2012 4:46 pm

thesunchild wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:There is evidence for this? Are there any statistics on frequency of J2a and G2a in central Asia?
Lol what hybrid folk? What does J2a and R1a equal then? I think your getting confused bewteen the subcladed.
Just look at sub-racial types my friend now and you will see what I'm talking about.


Image

http://rjgg.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/106/121


Kalash (Nuristan population of north Pakistan next to Nuristan of northeast Afghanistan):

L3a - 22.7%
H1* - 20.5%
R1a - 18.2%
G - 18.2%
J2 - 9.1%
R* - 6.8%
R1* - 2.3%
L* - 2.3%

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v.../5201726a.html

Thanks for the chart, but only the first link works. J2 isn't really that much, and as I said before they are just subclades. Plus genes do mutate, it could be also for many other reasons. Maybe because of the Persian empire etc... Kurds aren't proto-Aryan, what is a Proto-Aryan anywyas? What is an Aryan?
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat May 12, 2012 4:49 pm

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian [9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Sat May 12, 2012 4:52 pm

jjmuneer wrote:Thanks for the chart, but only the first link works. J2 isn't really that much, and as I said before they are just subclades. Plus genes do mutate, it could be also for many other reasons. Maybe because of the Persian empire etc... Kurds aren't proto-Aryan, what is a Proto-Aryan anywyas? What is an Aryan?

No, there's is very, very much J2a in Tajikistan and also in Ossetians: all Iranic folks.

Proto-Aryans lived in the ancient times. Kurds are modern population. Kurds are just 'Aryan'. Our ancestors called themselves Aryan, therefore we're Aryan too. Our ancestors were the lords of Eurasian steppes and Central Asia-Northern India.

For me it's all about our history and our legacy!
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat May 12, 2012 5:01 pm

thesunchild wrote:
jjmuneer wrote:Thanks for the chart, but only the first link works. J2 isn't really that much, and as I said before they are just subclades. Plus genes do mutate, it could be also for many other reasons. Maybe because of the Persian empire etc... Kurds aren't proto-Aryan, what is a Proto-Aryan anywyas? What is an Aryan?

No, there's is very, very much J2a in Tajikistan and also in Ossetians: all Iranic folks.

Proto-Aryans lived in the ancient times. Kurds are modern population. Kurds are just 'Aryan'. Our ancestors called themselves Aryan, therefore we're Aryan too. Our ancestors were the lords of Eurasian steppes and Central Asia-Northern India.

For me it's all about our history and our legacy!

Well it doesn't mean J2a is Kurdish. Haplogroups are assigned to a particular ethnic group. J2a amongst Ossetians and Tajikis isn't as much as compared to G2a amongst Ossetians and R1a1a in Tajikis. As I said before there are subclades J2a2a etc...
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Sat May 12, 2012 5:29 pm

Kurds, Ossetians and Tajiks are separated from each other for more than 2500 years. Of course their Y-DNA is a little bit different.

I believe that Y-DNA hg. R1a in Tajiks is Gedrosia. And we all know that Gedrosia component is from West Asian component.

That's why we have got aDNA. Gedrosia + Caucasia admixture among Tajiks, Ossetians and Kurds is the majority of their DNA!
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat May 12, 2012 6:17 pm

thesunchild wrote:Kurds, Ossetians and Tajiks are separated from each other for more than 2500 years. Of course their Y-DNA is a little bit different.

I believe that Y-DNA hg. R1a in Tajiks is Gedrosia. And we all know that Gedrosia component is from West Asian component.

That's why we have got aDNA. Gedrosia + Caucasia admixture among Tajiks, Ossetians and Kurds is the majority of their DNA!

Well alot of people in West Asia have caucasus admixture, Turks do even Syrian Arabs. Iranic isn't a race it is just a linguistic-cultural group. That is all. Our genetic similiarities are to our neighbours, if you have any ethnic genetic closeness map, then show me.

Here is all the stuff to disrpove what your trying to say:
Image
Image
C has a concentration in the Turkic Nogays
The presence of D this far west is very surprising, again in the Nogays. This haplogroup has a relic distribution, with particular concentrations in Tibet, Mongolia, Japan, and Andaman Islanders. In all likelihood its presence here is linked to the Nogays' eastern origin
E and its subclades occurs at a very low frequency here
G2a has a clear West Caucasus (both north and south) concentration
I seems to have a mainly West Caucasus distribution as well; this is a common European haplogroup; it has quite elevated frequencies among the Andis and Kara Nogays. It would be interesting to discover some historical correlate for the presence of I in Kara Nogays but not Kuban Nogays and in Andis but not in most of the NE Caucasus
J1 has the expected Northeast Caucasus nexus. This haplogroup is bimodal, with a mode in Arabians and a secondary mode in NE Caucasus. Note the paucity of J1e-P58, the reverse of the situation of Arabians; I've noted before the likely association of the P58 clade with Semitic languages.
The extreme concentration of J2 in Chechens and Ingush are probably associated with low variance. Apart from these atypical populations, a substantial presence of this haplogroup can be found in the NW/S Caucasus in different populations and in the form of different subclades.
The new LT mystery clade has its usual low-frequency wide distribution
N occurs in Nogays as expected, and, like C, also in the NW Caucasus. This probably also represents an eastern influence, probably associated not only with the Nogays but also with various Tatar influences on the Caucasus.
Q occurs widely in the NW Caucasus but only in 1 Nogay. Perhaps this is more of a Tatar marker, although a finer-scale resolution of this haplogroup is really necessary.
R1a-related lineages occur less frequently here among eastern Slavs, a main reason for the disconnect between the Eastern European plain and the Caucasus. There does, however, appear to be good diversity here, with the presence of R1a*, R1a1-M198*, Note again how the Iranic Ossetians (both North and South) have almost no R1a1 compared to both their NW Caucasian and S Caucasian neighbors, again, suggesting that this may not have been an important Alan or steppe Iranian lineage, at least during the late antique time horizon. The occurrence of R1a1f-M458 may represent Slavic influence in the NW Caucasus.
R1b-related lineages seem ubuiquitous in the Caucasus. R-M73 occurs substantially in Kara Nogays and Balkars, an apparent link with Central Asia where this haplogroup occurs frequently.

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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Sat May 12, 2012 6:29 pm

What the hell are you talking about? Turks and Arabs have a lot Kurdish DNA in them. Turks assimilated many Kurds and Armenians.

All Iranic (Aryan) folks are our relatives. Also Kurds and Persians are genetically speaking the closest nations to each other.

"In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well a sa genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals."

Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians

Here an article about Ossetians: http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasi ... G.2004.pdf
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sat May 12, 2012 6:49 pm

thesunchild wrote:What the hell are you talking about? Turks and Arabs have a lot Kurdish DNA in them. Turks assimilated many Kurds and Armenians.

All Iranic (Aryan) folks are our relatives. Also Kurds and Persians are genetically speaking the closest nations to each other.

"In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well a sa genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals."

Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians

Here an article about Ossetians: http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasi ... G.2004.pdf

What Kurdish DNA? Armenians aren't Iranic either. Turks did assimilate the native populations, as the map shows that would mean they share similiarities to their neighbours. Ossetians and Kurds sure we have cultural and linguistic similiarities, but genetically there isn't much in common. Northern or caucasus Kurds may cluster with them, but Ossetians obserbed the genetics of the native population. Phenotypically and genetically they are much similar to their North caucasian neighbours. Persians are quite a large thnic group and spread out, but Kurds as a whole cluster with North Iranians more. You have to remember, we aren't closest to Persians just, but also Gilakis, Mazandaris, since they also have Median/Parthian ancestry. Anyways I've shown the maps, you cannot deny it or refute what I'm saying. No one is denying we have common heritage with Ossetians Tajikis etc.. but your trying to group them and us together like were a race.
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: thesunchild » Sat May 12, 2012 7:55 pm

The closest relatives to Kurds are Persians. Both groups are Iranic. Fact? CHECK!

The population of people in the Caucasus is very small. There're 50 million Kurds. There're more Kurds than all native Caucasians combined. And it seems that the native population of the Caucasus is very close to Kurds. But the fact is that there’s a lot Gedrosia aDNA in the Caucasus. Gedrosia component is very high in the Caucasus among indigenous Caucasian people like Chechens, Lezgians, Adygei etc. According to me most people in the Caucasus have a lot Kurdish blood from the Zagros Mountains in them.

Ossetians and Kurds are very very close to each other, since both groups have links with the Caucasus mountains and since both groups are Iranic.

Kurds are West Aryans, Ossetians (Alanians) are Northwest Aryans, Persians are Central Aryans and Tajiks are the most Eastern Aryans. All Aryan nations have the same roots.
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: alan131210 » Sat May 12, 2012 10:17 pm

i just want to add kurds are NOT iranians , they are Aryans and speak iranic languages . but saying kurds are iranians its a crime !

jj i have seen some of your posts (seenomore) on youtube saying kurds are iranians !! , i dont know how you can come to this conclusion but you are wrong . :)
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun May 13, 2012 9:47 am

alan131210 wrote:i just want to add kurds are NOT iranians , they are Aryans and speak iranic languages . but saying kurds are iranians its a crime !

jj i have seen some of your posts (seenomore) on youtube saying kurds are iranians !! , i dont know how you can come to this conclusion but you are wrong . :)

Show me a post in which I said Kurds are Iranian? Lol show me please. I said we are Iranic which is a language group. Aryan isn't, Aryan is just a replacement for 'indo-European'. Who even said Kurds are Iranian here? Were talking about genetics and phenotypes.
Last edited by jjmuneer on Sun May 13, 2012 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Archaeologists discover lost language in Kurdistan

PostAuthor: jjmuneer » Sun May 13, 2012 9:49 am

thesunchild wrote:The closest relatives to Kurds are Persians. Both groups are Iranic. Fact? CHECK!

The population of people in the Caucasus is very small. There're 50 million Kurds. There're more Kurds than all native Caucasians combined. And it seems that the native population of the Caucasus is very close to Kurds. But the fact is that there’s a lot Gedrosia aDNA in the Caucasus. Gedrosia component is very high in the Caucasus among indigenous Caucasian people like Chechens, Lezgians, Adygei etc. According to me most people in the Caucasus have a lot Kurdish blood from the Zagros Mountains in them.

Ossetians and Kurds are very very close to each other, since both groups have links with the Caucasus mountains and since both groups are Iranic.

Kurds are West Aryans, Ossetians (Alanians) are Northwest Aryans, Persians are Central Aryans and Tajiks are the most Eastern Aryans. All Aryan nations have the same roots.

You are confusing genetics with culture and language. You didn't show me nothing to say they are close. I showed you genetic admixture and gene pool closeness to show you we may have similiarities but were not as clsoe as you say. I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, you cannot deny the facts. Anyways Admixture doesn't really show anything, it just shows there was some mixing. The caucasus people are probably unique and genetically they are fairly isolated as a whole. I've already showed you our genetic closeness, so I don't know why you are in denial my friend.
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