Desillusion of diaspora

[Vladimir]

Tomjez wrote:
well thank you diri for making difference between french and me. It spares me time. You're talking about friendship with other nations...don't call nations people not living in their own country. You are disconnected communities. People in Armenia and in Greece don't spend their time on english speaking forums. Well I'm not sure they have internet in Armenia anyway.

Vladimir, you look cool, but don't try to teach me what I must understand. Atatürk is a stupid dead body in a stupid temple in Ankara: he is not responsible for the state kurds are living know: France, England, URSS and USA are for some parts.

KURDS are mostly responsible too: at least their stupid leaders. Nobody forced them to rally atatürk. Nobody forced them to kill armenians. Atatürk died in 1938, he can't be held for responsible for all the shit that happened since: do you know about Kenan Evren, Arpaslan Türkes, Devlet Bahçeli, Hizmi Özkok??????THESE are the fucking ennemies of the kurds! Atatürk didn't care, when it was good to be allied with kurds, he was, when he didn't need them, he crushed them. I don't like him, but HE was clever, and kurds were dumb enough to believe him. As they were dumb enough to trust kissinger or USSR, to die for Apo, or to kill each other between PUK and PDK. XX century history of kurds is an history of failures.

Kurds are their own greates ennemies: do you know another people of 30 millions not having a state????????? You can blame a man dead 70 years ago for that, but It won't bring you anywhere.

Vladimir you're nice, but I live in turkey for a long time, I travelled in north and south kurdistan, I think the best way to understand what happens somewhere is to go there, not to get brainwashed by diasporas. I'm fighting, provoking everyday stupid turkish nationalists: they're not 80% of turkish people! Kurdish fight is not mine, I'm not kurd, I don't have to hate anybody, I can have a clear mine and see what's linked to political reality and what is not. I hate turkish nationalism, not kemalism. It's better to live in Turkey than in any muslim state in the world: if they can get rid of their paranoid nationalism, it will be a plain democratic state. Things are changing, 2005 turkey is not 1999 turkey.

If Turkey gets more democratic and join the EU, kurds will have more right. They already have. If diasporas keep on treating turks like barbarians, they will just close themselves and resume oppressing their minorities.

The greatest chance of iraki kurds is to convince turkey they are not a threat and to have normal diplomatical relationships. The most important thing for kurds of turkey is democracy, human rights, economical developement, not "great kurdistan".
Stop thinking in the place of real people. I don't pretend too.

Vladimir "Rather an islamic kurdistan......" WOULD YOU LIVE IN IT???????????????? You probably know better than people living there, who will be happy to know you prefer them being oppressed by Talibans than by Jandarma.
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[Vladimir]

I will give a reply later. But I want to remind you I've been in Turkey since I was 2 years old. I know the country out of my head.

[tomjez]

Well ok then it will be great to debate. But there are turks living in turkey for 25 years and who don't understand a shit, and don't know anything else than what they were taught in primary schools..

[Vladimir]

Atatürk is a stupid dead body in a stupid temple in Ankara: he is not responsible for the state kurds are living know: France, England, URSS and USA are for some parts.

KURDS are mostly responsible too: at least their stupid leaders. Nobody forced them to rally atatürk. Nobody forced them to kill armenians. Atatürk died in 1938, he can't be held for responsible for all the shit that happened since: do you know about Kenan Evren, Arpaslan Türkes, Devlet Bahçeli, Hizmi Özkok??????THESE are the fucking ennemies of the kurds! Atatürk didn't care, when it was good to be allied with kurds, he was, when he didn't need them, he crushed them. I don't like him, but HE was clever, and kurds were dumb enough to believe him. As they were dumb enough to trust kissinger or USSR, to die for Apo, or to kill each other between PUK and PDK. XX century history of kurds is an history of failures.

He is also responsible, because he was the one who decided to betray the Kurds and don't give them autonomy.

The Kurdish parties were also stupid to think they could get support from enemies (Which also had Kurdish minorities) and then crush THEIR enemy.

The Turks always say how great their army was.. but at the hoyboun uprising.. they couldn't do nothing. They were almost defeated. Then the Sjah of Persia signed an agreement.. voila.. Kurds were fucked without weapons..

Then Saddam's support for the PKK to fight the parties in South-Kurdistan

Ocalan in Syria and fucking it up for the Kurds there.

Islamic republic support for the Kurds against Saddam. They also almost won.. but then Saddam and the Islamic republic signed an agreement. Kurds were fucked..


etc etc

Kurds are their own greates ennemies: do you know another people of 30 millions not having a state????????? You can blame a man dead 70 years ago for that, but It won't bring you anywhere.

I don't blame everything on him. Kurds live in more parts then North-Kurdistan.

Vladimir you're nice, but I live in turkey for a long time, I travelled in north and south kurdistan, I think the best way to understand what happens somewhere is to go there, not to get brainwashed by diasporas. I'm fighting, provoking everyday stupid turkish nationalists: they're not 80% of turkish people! Kurdish fight is not mine, I'm not kurd, I don't have to hate anybody, I can have a clear mine and see what's linked to political reality and what is not. I hate turkish nationalism, not kemalism. It's better to live in Turkey than in any muslim state in the world: if they can get rid of their paranoid nationalism, it will be a plain democratic state. Things are changing, 2005 turkey is not 1999 turkey.

Turkey calls themselves a Muslim state too
And the Kurds have it better in South-Kurdistan.. (In Iraq.. Islamic state?)

But you are right Turkey is progressing.. but there are still a lot of limitations for the Kurds there. A lot of Kurds I know here are afraid the assimilation proces continues. This time not with oppression but with democracy..

If Turkey gets more democratic and join the EU, kurds will have more right. They already have. If diasporas keep on treating turks like barbarians, they will just close themselves and resume oppressing their minorities.

The diaspora doesn't have such a big influence. If Turkey does that, they are fucked too.

The greatest chance of iraki kurds is to convince turkey they are not a threat and to have normal diplomatical relationships. The most important thing for kurds of turkey is democracy, human rights, economical developement, not "great kurdistan".
Stop thinking in the place of real people. I don't pretend too.

Do I do that..?? No..
If the Kurds in North-Kurdistan weren't in such a shitty state they would have wanted indepence. That's why Iraqi Kurdistan must be independent FAST!

Vladimir "Rather an islamic kurdistan......" WOULD YOU LIVE IN IT???????????????? You probably know better than people living there, who will be happy to know you prefer them being oppressed by Talibans than by Jandarma.
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The Osman empire was quite good.
And yes I could live in an Islamic Kurdistan, because Kurds are not like Arabic Muslims. And in time Kurdistan would modernise too. But there is no Islamic Kurdistan.. so what are we talking about it.. You can't know if Kurdistan became like Taliban then..

[tomjez]

Agree, agree agree. But no, Turkey doesn't call itself a muslim state. It behaves like it, but is formally laïc.
I prefer a progressive kurdistan than an islamic one...In South Kurdistan, I drunk beer, talked to pretty young girls and felt less religious presence than in North Kurdistan. Much more liberty, cool way of life..anyway Kurdistan can not be islamic, too much christians for it . So yeah what are we talking about

[Vladimir]

About the sad history of the Kurds. Let's write a book Tomjez.. failure of Kurdish history. I think the Kurds can use some progressive critics.

[tomjez]

I'm sure they would, but my own people did much worse, they forgot their own language and accepted they were french

[Piling]

I'm sure they would, but my own people did much worse, they forgot their own language and accepted they were french

You're right, I guess that Independantist Britton parties have worse score in elections than DEHAP

[tomjez]

wait a few years, when DEHAP is 1% we can beat it