---¤ WHEN DEMOCRACY IS THE AIM - FREEDOM IS THE GAME ¤---

[Rumtaya]

Anyway - At the first sumit of the UN (or whatever it was) this map was used:




So the Bakhtiarî are also considered Kurds... As the map I have made here - I have "Put" the Lurs and the Bakhtiarî in the land I called "LURISTAN"...

Here is an map of the ethnicities in the area...

http://www.travel-images.com/az-iran-ethnic-map.jpg

Kurds are underestimated in all maps made by non Kurds...

lool nice map haha abit more to the euphrat river it would be exacly what was known as mesopotamia loool.

well never mind lets go colonialise the european states who is with me hahahaha

[abdur]

Diri, i agree with this map too. I was happily surprised to see 2 Kurdistan's and a very close family (lors) having access to the persian gulf.
Im afraid the Mamiki (alevi) dont want to live with the muslim-kurds, and that the kurmanji and sorani still would have problems. I guess Kurdistan will have to be a very loose federation or we will need some tough leader like Apo to keep the country together without any democracy.

[Diri]

Diri, i agree with this map too. I was happily surprised to see 2 Kurdistan's and a very close family (lors) having access to the persian gulf.
Im afraid the Mamiki (alevi) dont want to live with the muslim-kurds, and that the kurmanji and sorani still would have problems. I guess Kurdistan will have to be a very loose federation or we will need some tough leader like Apo to keep the country together without any democracy.

Well - I agree - The four parts of Kurdistan would have to have a federal structure - and the Zaza would have to be given autonomy, IF that is what they wish... Same could apply to the Lors in that case - because they are traditionally mostly considered Kurds, both by themselves and by Kurds... The Kurdistan we dream of - as the united entity will perhaps not happen in our lifetime - unless a great war broke out and Kurds won back all their lands (very unlikely )...

Kurmancî and Soranî Kurds don't have problems - look at Southern Kurdistan - things are GREAT - Barzanî has been leading Soranî speaking pêshmerges for decades... I don't think there is any problem - only our enemies WANT to make it into a problem... Damn them!

And I am sure you will see that Kurds don't need the traitor APO - because if we were THAT desperate we would need more than a miracle... APO said he was Turkish - and he has oppenly opposed that Southern Kurdistan becomes a FEDERAL state - so we can rule out APO'S support for ANYTHING Kurdish...

Only through a democracy will our Kurdistan rise ----> Through CHOICE - not FORCE...

[abdur]

Hmm i said it wrong about sorani and kurmanci, i meant more the hostility between kdp en puk supporters while puk dominated regions are mostly sorani and kdp predominantly bahdini. The civil war has been turned into a cold war for many years and we still hear of many cases when they are not showing unity (like the formation of the joint kurdistani goverment which is stalled since 1998). When independent Kurdistan emerges will they forget the past?

APO said he was Turkish - and he has oppenly opposed that Southern Kurdistan becomes a FEDERAL state

This is all said after he was kidnapped (i also dislike much of his policy when he was free), biggest problem is that pkk still listens to Imrali and changes their policy every minute after the lawyers of apo had a meeting with their great leader. I dont want to think how free Kurdistan would be like with Apo... that cant be called free Kurdistan anymore.

And I am sure you will see that Kurds don't need the traitor APO

Well he's still brings masses of people together, untill there is an alternative he will be adored by many northern kurds.

[tomjez]

By northern kurds not that much anymore. On the surface they support him but when you talk with them they say they don't care anymore but they're still afraid of PKK...The biggest problem is Apo's support in the diaspora...

[kurdistani]

Diri, i agree with this map too. I was happily surprised to see 2 Kurdistan's and a very close family (lors) having access to the persian gulf.
Im afraid the Mamiki (alevi) dont want to live with the muslim-kurds, and that the kurmanji and sorani still would have problems. I guess Kurdistan will have to be a very loose federation or we will need some tough leader like Apo to keep the country together without any democracy.

Well - I agree - The four parts of Kurdistan would have to have a federal structure - and the Zaza would have to be given autonomy, IF that is what they wish... Same could apply to the Lors in that case - because they are traditionally mostly considered Kurds, both by themselves and by Kurds... The Kurdistan we dream of - as the united entity will perhaps not happen in our lifetime - unless a great war broke out and Kurds won back all their lands (very unlikely )...

Kurmancî and Soranî Kurds don't have problems - look at Southern Kurdistan - things are GREAT - Barzanî has been leading Soranî speaking pêshmerges for decades... I don't think there is any problem - only our enemies WANT to make it into a problem... Damn them!

And I am sure you will see that Kurds don't need the traitor APO - because if we were THAT desperate we would need more than a miracle... APO said he was Turkish - and he has oppenly opposed that Southern Kurdistan becomes a FEDERAL state - so we can rule out APO'S support for ANYTHING Kurdish...

Only through a democracy will our Kurdistan rise ----> Through CHOICE - not FORCE...

On the issue of the Lurs and other minorities.... I don't think that Kurdish nationalists should be 'claiming them' as part of Kurdistan... This map in which Kurdistan stretchs to the gulf would be a disastor becasue there would be large numbers of non Kurdish areas....

This was the mistake that the polish made after the first world war...
They were divided between the Germans, Austrians and Russians... when they became independnet they took a large area of land in th east which had very few poles on it.... Although 'historically' this area had been part of 'the Kingdom of Poland'... on nationality grounds the lands were Belorussian and Lithuanaian.... Now Kurdistan has never been a unified state... thus even the historical claims to a slice of coast line on the gulf is Bull shit...
Kurdistan to me are those areas that Kurds are dominate in and are geographically contigious... I have no interest in claiming Ezerum... Al-Kut or Khorramabad.....
We kurds have a hard enough time as it is... hell Turkey is against even the smallest cultural rights... what is the point of claiming these huge fanatasy maps.....

[Diri]

Diri, i agree with this map too. I was happily surprised to see 2 Kurdistan's and a very close family (lors) having access to the persian gulf.
Im afraid the Mamiki (alevi) dont want to live with the muslim-kurds, and that the kurmanji and sorani still would have problems. I guess Kurdistan will have to be a very loose federation or we will need some tough leader like Apo to keep the country together without any democracy.

Well - I agree - The four parts of Kurdistan would have to have a federal structure - and the Zaza would have to be given autonomy, IF that is what they wish... Same could apply to the Lors in that case - because they are traditionally mostly considered Kurds, both by themselves and by Kurds... The Kurdistan we dream of - as the united entity will perhaps not happen in our lifetime - unless a great war broke out and Kurds won back all their lands (very unlikely )...

Kurmancî and Soranî Kurds don't have problems - look at Southern Kurdistan - things are GREAT - Barzanî has been leading Soranî speaking pêshmerges for decades... I don't think there is any problem - only our enemies WANT to make it into a problem... Damn them!

And I am sure you will see that Kurds don't need the traitor APO - because if we were THAT desperate we would need more than a miracle... APO said he was Turkish - and he has oppenly opposed that Southern Kurdistan becomes a FEDERAL state - so we can rule out APO'S support for ANYTHING Kurdish...

Only through a democracy will our Kurdistan rise ----> Through CHOICE - not FORCE...

On the issue of the Lurs and other minorities.... I don't think that Kurdish nationalists should be 'claiming them' as part of Kurdistan... This map in which Kurdistan stretchs to the gulf would be a disastor becasue there would be large numbers of non Kurdish areas....

This was the mistake that the polish made after the first world war...
They were divided between the Germans, Austrians and Russians... when they became independnet they took a large area of land in th east which had very few poles on it.... Although 'historically' this area had been part of 'the Kingdom of Poland'... on nationality grounds the lands were Belorussian and Lithuanaian.... Now Kurdistan has never been a unified state... thus even the historical claims to a slice of coast line on the gulf is Bull shit...
Kurdistan to me are those areas that Kurds are dominate in and are geographically contigious... I have no interest in claiming Ezerum... Al-Kut or Khorramabad.....
We kurds have a hard enough time as it is... hell Turkey is against even the smallest cultural rights... what is the point of claiming these huge fanatasy maps.....

Well... The thing is - Lors themselves (many of them) concieve themselves as Kurds... So you can't deny them that...

And I agree about a continious Kurdistan... Of course - my point is that we must hold REFERENDUMS- to solve this problem... Let every village and two decide if they want to be part of Kurdistan...


And relax----> It is just a map... A place where you can start negotiating from...

[heval]

Hmm i said it wrong about sorani and kurmanci, i meant more the hostility between kdp en puk supporters while puk dominated regions are mostly sorani and kdp predominantly bahdini. The civil war has been turned into a cold war for many years and we still hear of many cases when they are not showing unity (like the formation of the joint kurdistani goverment which is stalled since 1998). When independent Kurdistan emerges will they forget the past?

You left out something very critical in your argument Mr. abdur... The majority of the Kurdish population in Southern Kurdistan highly opposed this cival war. This civil war was not a war between the predominantly Badini regions versus the predominantly Sorani regions. This was was strictly based on PDK-PUK interests. In the interests of the people of Kurdistan, I surely do hope that one day Kurdistan will be a democratic country with representatives elected by the people and not appointed by the parties. If this happens, all prospects of this disunity and cold war you speak about will cease to exist.

Additionally, I want to say to everyone...the beliefs of dividing Kurdistan based upon Kurdish religions and Kurdish dialects is contrary to the very dream of a united free Kurdistan. As you divide Kurdistan based on Kurdish religions and Kurdish dialects, you pave the way and reason for the world to justify their beliefs that Kurds do not deserve a state of their own...

[tomjez]

as long as every group and every language or religion has its own rights....

[abdur]

Tomjez and heval, i really hope it is like what you are claiming but in daily life i see too many people from north and south who follow their parties/leaders blindly.

I surely do hope that one day Kurdistan will be a democratic country with representatives elected by the people and not appointed by the parties.

Me too.. but our democratic expierience is really shortcoming. Thats why i think the country will have to be kept together under 1 kind of dictator, or which i think its more descent a very loose federation. I have a question, if you can choose to live in a dictatorial (no freedom of speech etc.) but independent Kurdistan or a Turkey/Iraq which is more or less democratic but without selfrule for the kurds. Which one to choose?

A funny story about the last elections: There is one guy i know living in south Kurdistan and he said that he was brought by kdp-asayish to different polling stations so that he could vote for party. Problem was that he didnt know to read in arabic font so he just voted for something.

[Diri]

Tomjez and heval, i really hope it is like what you are claiming but in daily life i see too many people from north and south who follow their parties/leaders blindly.

I surely do hope that one day Kurdistan will be a democratic country with representatives elected by the people and not appointed by the parties.

Me too.. but our democratic expierience is really shortcoming. Thats why i think the country will have to be kept together under 1 kind of dictator, or which i think its more descent a very loose federation. I have a question, if you can choose to live in a dictatorial (no freedom of speech etc.) but independent Kurdistan or a Turkey/Iraq which is more or less democratic but without selfrule for the kurds. Which one to choose?

A funny story about the last elections: There is one guy i know living in south Kurdistan and he said that he was brought by kdp-asayish to different polling stations so that he could vote for party. Problem was that he didnt know to read in arabic font so he just voted for something.

Why is it that we have shortcomings? I doubt that Kurds will be Norwegians over night... But we aren't as far from them as Arabs... I mean measuring in democracy...

I don't like your talk about Kurdish being a dictatorship... It is very sad that this is the way you view things... No wonder the world doesn't want our nation to be free..

[abdur]

Why is it that we have shortcomings?

How democratic were the latest elections for the federation? Put the biggest parties on 1 list and vote...
If i sounded like in favour of dictatorship i take my words back But i think i made it clear why i mentioned it, see also this quote:

I dont want to think how free Kurdistan would be like with Apo... that cant be called free Kurdistan anymore.

[heval]

Why is it that we have shortcomings?

How democratic were the latest elections for the federation? Put the biggest parties on 1 list and vote...
If i sounded like in favour of dictatorship i take my words back But i think i made it clear why i mentioned it, see also this quote:

I dont want to think how free Kurdistan would be like with Apo... that cant be called free Kurdistan anymore.

Once again, I think you are leaving out a critical point in your argument. The recent elections in Kurdistan were undemocratic because of the PDK-PUK interests, not because of the interests of the people of Kurdistan. I am unsure of what daily life you speak about but like I said, when the parties were at "civil war" with one another, the majority of the people in Kurdistan stopped their support for the parties and openly protested their actions. More proof that their is less of these blind followers is the constant protests against the KRG for their actions or lack of action in benefiting Kurdistan.

Regarding the parties, there surely is a problem with democracy and major need to eliminate corruption. This may or may not be due to the fact that these parties have not yet transformed into truly democratic governmental bodies from the previously revolutionary/rebel parties they once were. Our democratic experience is shortcoming partly because we have never truly had a sovereign country to display it. However, regarding the people of Kurdistan, democracy is something that can be easily achieved but the power will have to handed back to the people first. I think by the time Kurdistan is free, we will find a way to achieve this.