Jews Security Institute to help Turkey in Killing kurds !

[Diri]

Nishtîman - enough with this mind reading... Here is what I think:


The PKK is a freedom movement - BUT it has now for the last 5 slowly LOST my respect. However - whenever it is attacked by Turks, Persians or Arabs or any other OUTSIDERS - I defend it like I was pro-PKK... So don't blame me for throwing out the bathwater... I just threw out the baby...

[Nistiman]

ok, my bad for bringing up the bath/baby analogy.

(But for the record, and for the sake of all children's activists out there, when one gives a baby a bath, one should save the baby and throw out the bathwater, right? (i hope so, atleast) So, what I was saying was that when trying to protect the Kurdish struggle, the PKK (aka "The Baby") from Kemalism, etc...you can throw out the bathwater (aka criticize the PKK, or Kemalism, etc..) without throwing the baby out with it...)

However - whenever it is attacked by Turks, Persians or Arabs or any other OUTSIDERS - I defend it like I was pro-PKK...

Hey, if you say so.

[tomjez]

If that is your position - ask yourself whether it makes sense for you to have the same goal as the Turkish army ?

I'm sorry but yes it makes sense, PKK is a pain in the ass for kurds in turkey, it does not represent anybody outside the Diaspora.

I am going out on a limb here, but Ocalan, it appears, may have understood that Turkey was not and will not be 'negotiating'. I am quite happy with the decisions the PKK has taken in the last couple of months.

Well then you have the same goal than the bad part of turkish army, since PKK decisions are inspired by the extremist in the army...they break their cease fire when things get better, they do a cease fire just for EU talks then they break it, they kill tourists then they say it is not them!

And your happy with these decisions???. What the hell will it give to kurds? Why don't you go and fight with women divisions in the mountains? I'm sure you will have fun studying Apo's great ideas!

We have nothing to lose by giving PKK the benefit of the doubt at this time, but everything to lose if we do not remain alert to the developments.

Well sure you have nothing to lose, you don't live in Kurdistan

[Nistiman]

Tomjez, first of all, discussing the PKK with you gives me no pleasure nor does it inspire some sort of positive challenge. You get your information about the PKK from Michael Rubin and the 'intellectuals' you encounter in Beyoglu and anti-PKK circles in Europe? That alone says enough. And believe me, if I came across you in Turkey with your blatant antipathy against the PKK, I'd probably keep quiet too.

We do not have the same foundation to discuss this issue. If you do not recognize what the PKK has given to the Kurds, as well as what it can deliver to the Kurds, then there is no use discussing what they are doing in the present. For you they are just a nuisance - one bad obstacle away from 'peace'... For some Kurds, that 'peace' you seek is like the sleep before death.

You claim that for the 'first time' you hope that PKK will be crushed...well, was there ever a time you actually supported them? THAT would suprise me, not the fact that you want them crushed.

Why don't you go and fight with women divisions in the mountains? I'm sure you will have fun studying Apo's great ideas!

I am sure you didn't say this hypocritically -- so, does this mean you have enlisted in the Turkish army? And, I am sure you will enjoy some pearls of wisdom about mustafa kemal and the crusade against the evil terrorists, among other things.

[Piling]

nd, I am sure you will enjoy some pearls of wisdom about mustafa kemal

But Öcalan said himself that he is a Kemalist and he admires Mustafa Kemal

[tomjez]

Tomjez, first of all, discussing the PKK with you gives me no pleasure nor does it inspire some sort of positive challenge. You get your information about the PKK from Michael Rubin and the 'intellectuals' you encounter in Beyoglu and anti-PKK circles in Europe? That alone says enough. And believe me, if I came across you in Turkey with your blatant antipathy against the PKK, I'd probably keep quiet too.

We do not have the same foundation to discuss this issue. If you do not recognize what the PKK has given to the Kurds, as well as what it can deliver to the Kurds, then there is no use discussing what they are doing in the present. For you they are just a nuisance - one bad obstacle away from 'peace'... For some Kurds, that 'peace' you seek is like the sleep before death.

You claim that for the 'first time' you hope that PKK will be crushed...well, was there ever a time you actually supported them? THAT would suprise me, not the fact that you want them crushed.

Why don't you go and fight with women divisions in the mountains? I'm sure you will have fun studying Apo's great ideas!

I am sure you didn't say this hypocritically -- so, does this mean you have enlisted in the Turkish army? And, I am sure you will enjoy some pearls of wisdom about mustafa kemal and the crusade against the evil terrorists, among other things.

HUM!

No I never supported them thank you. No I don't have my ideas from Michael Rubin: Although he wrote good things about them (the only article I read was about öcalan killing his opponents, which is I think hard to prove wrong )!

I did not enlist in turkish army when I say go and fight it means stop saying all Kurds should support this great organization, juste leave Canada and join a brainwashing summercamp in south kurdistan!

What has PKK given to Kurds. According to Apocus, no Kurds knew about its identity before Apo came. Well it is a surprise then! I suppose they all started speaking kurdish when Apo decided that TURKISH would be PKK working language? I suppose that Kurds fighting in Irak for the 20's did know they were kurdish? I suppose that all Kurds from Turkey who fought for their kurdish identity before Apo came were counter revolutionary imperialist traitors?

PKK has given Kurds proudness: that I agree, for the first time since the 20's and 30's revolts, a Kurdish military group was creating problems to the Turkish army.

But by killing innocents as "traitors" (a lot of kurds among them), PKK did not make much for kurds I think.

By agreeing with Turkish governements and maintaining the war INSIDE Kurdistan, it contributed to its destruction. I KNOW that it is the turkish army who destroyed the villages, but Öcalan tactic was clear:

If Kurds have nothing to lose, they'll join me! If they have no education, they will love me, and they will believe I am a reincarnation of Mahommet, Socrate and Lenin in one body!

[tomjez]

And we can discuss for hours about what it gave or not gave, did or not did

But NOW!

What the hell could it do for kurds????????????? Beat the turkish army? They never managed to hold a territory bigger than a football field!

Built a democratic independent north kurdistan?

honnestly..........even if turkish army decides to leave Kurdistan, and even if an independent kurdistan is created, ruled by PKK it will become a humanitary crisis, a state like North Korea or Turkmenistan...

Golden statue of apo in the middle of Diyarbakir.....wah, this is really what kurds want, I'm sure!

[Vladimir]

By agreeing with Turkish governements and maintaining the war INSIDE Kurdistan, it contributed to its destruction.

Therefore TAK = Not PKK..

[tomjez]

It was in the past

bombs outside Kurdistan started mostly after öcalan' arrest, when young kurds thought their life had no meaning anymore, now that Big Moustache was in jail...

For the TAK it is hard to say, I think they are linked to PKK, which condemns their actions but support them

SEE we are democrats, we are not terrorims

BUT we use terrorist to increase anti kurdish racism in turkey, because it is good for us...

this is only my opinion, I have no fact to prove it.

[abdur]

Tomjez, i believe it's not only kurdish proudness.

Positive things since 1970 is that we dont have much of these aga's anymore, situation of the woman has been improved a little, the assimilation has been stopped in many area's and we have some cultural rights in turkish laws. Some people would say this all has happened thanks to the pkk.

About the TAK i agree with you.

bombs outside Kurdistan started mostly after öcalan' arrest, when young kurds thought their life had no meaning anymore, now that Big Moustache was in jail...

But it wasnt only spontanous. There was an order from highest level from the kadro to train many of their guerilla's who were "unimportant" to become suicide bombers. The 1st decisions from imrali halted this disaster.

[tomjez]

Yeah, because Apo wanted to save his head...one of the few good things he made (not save his head!!!) , I think that if young Kurds had become new palestinians, democracy would have been definitely impossible...

Some people would say this all has happened thanks to the pkk.

For the rights I think it's more EU influence than PKK...rights came AFTER öcalan was arrested, and only when AKP came into power...

For the Agas I guess PKK killed most of them as imperialit traitors

For situation of women: yeah lot of thing to do. First stop killing women who don't want to join PKK...

For assimilation

It may have stopped assimilation. I has also stopped education, which is not very nice for kurds...

[Diri]

People who say bad things about the Kurdish Eshîret are spitting at their own culture... Kurdish society has been allianized by the Turkish government especially - the tribes have been the only thing that stopped Kurds from assimilating back in the days untill the 80's - the people who deny this are ignorant... [/list]

[tomjez]

Agree about the tribes..

What's Eshiret ?

[Vladimir]

Tribe.. in Turkish asiret I think..

[tomjez]

ok, not a word you hear too much around Istanbul....