APO, PKK and the Holy Kurdish War

[berxwedan]

(Your favourite issue. Only because PKK and Apo are the greatest. Otherwise it wouldn't have been such a great issue. I mean, who the hell wants to talk about Kemal Burkay?)

I promised myself not write in this forum, but I hold some principles dearly, and some fuckup just broke a couple of thousands of them.

Me and Nistiman have had our trifles, and we don't agree on the strategic mission set forward by Ocalan. She has her reasons for not supporting him, I have mine for supporting him. But the strongest common denominator between me and her is that we both are Kurds. To the bone. Mind and body. Her concern for the Kurdish question is not fake. It's in her blood.

Which brings me to a very irritating issue. That some people in this forum thinks that they can rise up to her level of Kurdishness and attack her views, which she has made, while, being a KURD. That's right. She's is a Kurd. She may live in the diaspora or not, but she will always be welcomed to Kurdistan, HER homeland and HER nation. The day she WON'T be welcomed to Kurdistan because she is a KURD, is the day you all can forget Kurdistan. That day, it's not Kurdistan anymore. Nistiman is immune. I will let HER criticize me, but not you fake friends of Kurds. (Gee, I guess this makes me a Kurdish nationalist, even though I prefer the word 'patriot'.)

Who is opposing her? Look at the people. This 'Tomjez' guy, living in TURKEY (Istanbul is TURKEY), a non-Kurdish entity, which has travelled to Kurdistan (at most, how many times Tomjez?) and is suddenly a Kurdologue. There are some more of you non-Kurdish wannabe Kurds in this forum, but bashing Tomjez is enough. He's the most active of you.

Tomjez is a fierce anti-PKK and fierce anti-Apo. So fierce that he thinks that the Turkish army should crush the PKK. Shame on you KURDS on this forum for not answering this loser. You may hate the PKK, but those are Kurds. By not answering the guy, you have agreed that the Turkish army should crush the PKK. If that's the case, then what's the difference between you and a Village Guard? Shame, shame, shame.

Some of you have mentioned Ismail Besikci on this forum. Has anybody ever read Besikci before? Don't do namedropping if you don't know the man. If you would read Besikci, you would read chapters after chapters of Kurd-bashing. What does he want of Kurds? Besikci basically says that Kurds must, if they are honest with their honour, take up arms. Besikci says that no Kurd can talk about honour when their families are raided by Turkish gendarmeries, humiliated in town centers, stripped naked and sexually harrassed in front of their husbands and wifes (anybody heard of the famous Turkish truncheons?). Besikci says that if a Kurd claims to be a "LION OF LIONS", he or she must then ANSWER to this OBVIOUS breach of national honour. Besikci is a TRUE friend of the Kurds, because he has put his energy into vitalizing the militancy of the Kurdish people.

But you see, the difference between many of you non-Kurds, trying to be friends of Kurds, and Ismail Besikci, is that Besikci wrote books which earned him tens of years in Turkish prisons. I can't see you as a Besikci, Mr Tomjez. You are a tourist, having "orientalism" as your hobby. You are not even consistent in your posts on this forum. Look at the time the Kemalist came here. He crushed you. He moved you like a lawn. What was your response? "Do you have a MSN?" What's wrong with you Frenchy? Now, I hope to take a discussion with this Kemalist later, but hey, admit it, that guy knows his stuff. I saw several inconsistencies, but that's because I, as a PKK supporter, have fought these guys. These are the guys I have fought, and in the end, these are the guys I will make peace with. But what's your reason Tomjez?

What's is YOUR agenda? Why are you so concerned with the Kurds? What do you do for a living in Beyoglu, Istanbul? Who's paying your stay, your food and for the roof over your head? And why do you spend so much of your free time on Kurds? Are you making a living of the Kurdish misery, so you can go back as every other missionary that has visited the 'Orient', writing a book and talking on TV- and RADIO shows as an expert? I, as a Kurd, am the expert mister. There is a REASON for us to be in the diaspora. We can't go to Istanbul and play freelance photographer as you. The second we would do that, we would be raided by Turkish secret police. Which reality do you live in? I'll tell you which.. A reality with an agenda.

Why an agenda? I mean, look at you. You say that you don't agree with Michael Rubin, but when it comes to the PKK, you do. But good morning. PKK is Michael Rubin's area of expertise. It's the only thing he is obsessed with and he won't stop until PKK is crushed. Is Rubin a friend of Kurds? Definately not. That is, if you present Rubin's views to a Kurd in AMED (we Kurds don't call it "DIYARBAKIR", try to learn something), that Kurd would go rampage. You being so fiercly anti-PKK in Turkey means that you have set yourself an agenda. You are now politically involved in the issues Turkey has. And you have taken a stance in its issues against the Kurds.

You claim that PKK's only support is in the diaspora. Which means that you haven't seen the NEWROZ pictures from northern Kurdistan? Either you haven't, or you are simply physically not capable of seeing pictures (which then I must ask, how do you take YOUR pictures?) The Kurds in northern Kurdistan doesn't even have to organize a Newroz for you to realize PKK and Ocalan's support in Kurdistan. PKK is holy and so is Ocalan. Come on, even your friend Erdogan admits it by going to the HEARTLAND of Kurdistan, AMED (not "DIYARBAKIR") and holding a 'reconciliation speech'.

You say that PKK "sabotages" ceasefires, as if it was the TURKISH STATE that declared them, and PKK sabotaged them. ALL the ceasefires from 1993 and forward, are trademarked as "PKK(tm)". No one else. What has been the answer to those ceasefires? Well, the Turkish generals thinks just like you: "The PKK must be crushed", so apparently, there has been no positive answers.

I mean, all this and more, you claim as a FRENCH 22-year-old tourist in Istanbul, after reading Rubin and talking to your Turkish friends in Turkey. Because I assume that you DO have TURKISH friends, because you have apparently had the chance to exercise your Turkish.

Which also brings me to another issue.. Something else you claim. You say that PKK's official language is Turkish. So, which language are they talking to the villagers in Kurdistan, which most of them don't know a single Turkish. According to your logic, they must be talking 'Tarzanca' with each other. PKK acts after demand. If there is a huge demand after Kurdish, the PKK gives the people Kurdish. In the villages, there are NO demand for Turkish. In the universities, there are demands for Turkish. PKK was created by militant Kurds in the academic world. A very dangerous organisation for the enemies of the Kurds.

Yes, PKK revived the Kurdishness in Kurdistan. They revived Newroz, they turned oral tradition into scriptures; they BROADCASTED the oral tradition. Songs and poems. You claim that PKK has no support in Kurdistan. That's such a typical "Official Turkish State Line". Why don't you just visit Kurdistan and check for satellite dishes? In 1995, satellite dish companies in Kurdistan flourished. (Kurdistan TV didn't come until 1997.) Go to Kurdistan and ask people what TV channels they watch with their satellite dish. Ask them which radio channel they listen to. If they absolute, crushing, majority won't say 'Roj TV' and 'Denge Mezopotamya' then I'll eat your GU. But if the majority will say Roj TV and DM, then you'll eat my and the rest of the Kurdish people's gu.

(How novel to use a simple argument as satellite dishes to crush an argument like that.. But then again, weak arguments are always crushed with slightly stronger ones.)

Don't even try Tomjez. You will only attract a bunch of Village Guards with your views. And when you do, you will have earned yourself not the friendship, but the animosity of the Kurdish people. As a friend of jashs.

You support the Turkish army huh, jashê jash.

[tomjez]

Mais je t'emmerde pauvre con! Fous moi sur ta liste noire si ca t'amuse!

1) I'm not a tourist. I'm not "orientalist"

2) I'm not paid I make money by doing interpret, and it barely pays for my rent...I make an internship in a refugee aid NGO

3) I worked enough on PKK to have my own point of view, thank you

4) I have no political activities

5)I don't "support" turkish army. But I do hope it will get rid of PKK. It sounds disgusting I know, and I'm not too happy to say it, but PKK is an obstacle to peace, not "dead of kurds", just "economic reconstruction, democracy, developement...".
As I said ten times, PKK resumed war when things were getting better, it is enough to see its AJENDA (you like this word, very turk...)

6) I'm not kurdish, I don't "wannabe" either! I'm happy with my own identity

7) I spend time with kurds because I enjoy it! I don't spend time with PKK's because it is very very boring.

Last time I checked 100% kurdish blood did not make people clever automatically. No kurdish blood did not make people unable to speak about kurds either.

9)

Look at the time the Kemalist came here. He crushed you. He moved you like a lawn. What was your response? "Do you have a MSN?

Where did he crush me? did you read what I wrote? Did it sound like pro-turkish to you?????? This guy disguts me as much as you. Öcalan is more kemalist than me

10) About Rubin: I don't care about this guy, I only read what he wrote about internal repression inside PKK: I met enough ex-pkk to know it is true! I know they must be "jash" for you...

11) About Newroz I was on March 21 2003 in Diyarbakir, no problem. Yes they supported Apo, because they were educated like that.

12) I'm not a kurd, so I have no reason to support it. I love kurds, so I have good reason not to like this party.

There is a REASON for us to be in the diaspora. We can't go to Istanbul and play freelance photographer as you. The second we would do that, we would be raided by Turkish secret police

LOL I'm freelance photographer in a sense I do it for free yes

Are you making a living of the Kurdish misery, so you can go back as every other missionary that has visited the 'Orient', writing a book and talking on TV- and RADIO shows as an expert?

???

PKK is holy and so is Ocalan.

No kidding? That must be why turks let him live, they did not want to be damned...

So it is kind of a religious duty for kurds to follow it?

Don't even try Tomjez. You will only attract a bunch of Village Guards with your views. And when you do, you will have earned yourself not the friendship, but the animosity of the Kurdish people. As a friend of jashs.

I beg to differ. PKK IS NOT KURDISH PEOPLE otherwise Kurdistan would be independant and a fierce dictatorship

you say that PKK's official language is Turkish.

Yes it is! I read engough PKK material in turkish for my thesis to know that!

Definately not. That is, if you present Rubin's views to a Kurd in AMED (we Kurds don't call it "DIYARBAKIR", try to learn something)

Yeah ok. Sorry to live in turkey and use turkish words...on a "non-nationalist" point of view, I must say that Diyarbakir sounds better than Amed....Diyarbakir was anyway founded by arabs!

I always say Dersim and not Tunceli though... there is no "antikurdish" intention in my vocabulary

[tomjez]

And I'm sorry, but you saw a lot of kurds who don't support Apo and call him a traitor and a coward. Are they all jashs?

I will let HER criticize me, but not you fake friends of Kurds. (Gee, I guess this makes me a Kurdish nationalist, even though I prefer the word 'patriot'.)

Stupid. Do you want kurdistan to be isolated from everything? this is so pkk...I'm not a "fake" friend of kurds, you can be a friend of kurds and don't like PKK, PKK is not "Kurds", and there is enough kurds who are not PKK to get good friends!

a non-Kurdish entity,

Waw I'm not even a human being, I'm an "entity"!

Yes, PKK revived the Kurdishness in Kurdistan. They revived Newroz, they turned oral tradition into scriptures; they BROADCASTED the oral tradition. Songs and poems.

YES I agree. They gave courage to Kurdish people to rise and say they were kurds, it is what PKK gave. I said that already in an other post.

What about anti-pkk kurds intellectuals? Forced to live in exile? What about Sivan Perwer, attacked by PKK in germany? What about Mehmet Uzun, whose books are published in Turkey but who is threatened by PKK?

Are they jashes?

[tomjez]

So instead of saying stupid things let's discuss

What do you think about holy Apo's attitude after his arrest?

[Diri]

Let me BUTT in...


Berxwedan - do YOU believe that "there is no Kurdistan without Apo"? Or how about - do you believe in "Kurdistan will not be free untill Apo is free"?


Simple question... I need a simple answer...

[tomjez]

PKKers have one mind for all of them. So I guess he believes it!

[Piling]

Besikci is a TRUE friend of the Kurds, because he has put his energy into vitalizing the militancy of the Kurdish people.

Yeah and after Öcalan's treason in 1999 he was very disgusted by the PKK... as a true Kurds' friend...

And in their ideology, PKK members should not be Kurds, only Apocî. All the Kurdish past and culture were "fascist" according to the Great Guru... But he just borned and brought the truth to the World...


In fact Apocism and Kemalism are Brothers, and even twins in stupidness and dictatorship.

[Nistiman]

Berxwedan, that was an unexpected but a very pleasant suprise to see you defend me, personally. I think what came out throughout our dialogue was a willingness to recognize our common points, recognize where we differ, and then move forward nonetheless in the spirit of friendship, comradery, and a common goal - a true concern for the Kurdish struggle. Kurds often speak of unity and yet, the minute there is a disagreement, then all hell breaks loose and we forget our common bond. I have been guilty of it.That is how flimsy our sense of patriotism often is. Surely, we cannot just blame the Turkish state for the fact of the village guards, or the countless years and lives that have been given for 'brakuji'. Something that you made me realize is that the minute I spend more time and energy attacking my own parties and people is the day when I contribute to my own demise, no matter how noble my objections, criticisms, etc.

I expected others, who had repeatedly used the words "kurdish unity" to say "no, i will never support the Turkish army in its end game of destroying the PKK". I would have thought others would have been bothered by the indifference and the total hypocrisy that is constantly being forced on the PKK. Whatever the PKK did in the last five years, NO ONE could blame it of being an obstacle in the way of peace or negotiations, or of making the political climate tense to prevent reformation.

There's a lot to be said... but in essence the PKK has earned my respect because of its creation and nurturing of a modern Kurdish patriotism that goes beyond regionalism, beyond the artificial borders that have been imposed upon us, that unites Kurds irrespective of faith, tribe, dialect, region, and sect...and along with this Patriotism, it has also provided the Kurdish nation with innumerable examples of militant Kurdish personalities - women and men - who have literally changed our conception of heroism, bravery, and sacrifice. It has given this to the Kurdish nation, and even if they were to change their policies, NOTHING and NO ONE can take this away from the hearts who have internalized it.

[tomjez]

militant Kurdish personalities - women and men - who have literally changed our conception of heroism, bravery, and sacrifice.

Apo? his brother? Karayilan? Bayik?


I totally understand that it must be very difficult for a kurd to give up his faith in the PKK. I did not have this problem when I got interested in kurdish issues. It was after 1999, so the first things I learned about PKK was that öcalan was a f.. coward who betrayed everything because he was afraid to be hanged. And it is kurds who told me that, kurds who supported the PKK, knowing it was dictatorial, that opponents were killed, but they supported it because there was no other choice. When Öcalan was arrested they were mad. When he said "I'm a friend of turkish republic, I admire Atatürk, Kurdistan independance was a dream", they could not believe it...coming from the guy who always said that Kurds were unworthy of a genius like him...

[tomjez]

By the way Bexwedan, if you come back here have a look at this site

http://www.nasname.de/

Lot of good articles, anti or pro-pkk (most pro) and a good example that all kurds are not behind PKK...and that PKK IS NOT KURDISH PEOPLE

[tomjez]

Shame on you KURDS on this forum for not answering this loser. You may hate the PKK, but those are Kurds

listen to your leader good people, you all have to do your autocritic...

The terrorists who commited suicide attacks in Erbil were kurds as well. Being kurd is not a guarantee of not being a complete asshole!

PKK killed a large number of kurds as well...so it proves that even for Apo kurdish blood is not holy (only his). You have to work again on his books man...

[dyaoko]

I promised myself not write in this forum, but I hold some principles dearly, and some fuckup just broke a couple of thousands of them.

Dear Berxwedan, my heart is with you and with my brothers and sisters in norhtern kurdistan , and I love Apo as a hero of the kurds... [he was a a hero Before he be captured] but after he was captured he is dead for me .

I didnt expect you say "I promised not to come to this forum" you should come and answer Those PPL like Tomjes , if you have an answer to them , please come and answer them.

I myself dont agree with Tojmes and others who Unfairly support turkey and they condemn everyything that PKK do . whenver I read Tomjes notes I feel that I am in middle of the shits and I feel that I have to go out soon...because of the bad smell of the shite...

but unfrotunately I dont have enough time to reply to them....
and also I dont have enough information [because I am eastern kurd] you yourself have better infromation than me and others...[because you are nothern kurd]
so I ask you and others to come and reply and tell your opiion and your idea FREELY ! this is what this forum is for dear !

please punch this tojmes with your logical answers ! I would clap for you

[abdur]

I read Tomjes notes I feel that I am in middle of the shits and I feel that I have to go out soon...because of the bad smell of the shite...

xwedê ezê biteqim, kenê min gelek hat

Sometimes i agree with Tomjez about the pkk, but i disagree with some phrases like the "turkish army crushing of pkk". That sounds really like taking the side of the turks in this conflict and not respecting the lives of all the thousands guerilla's. In their heart they went to the mountains to fight against turkish occupation, the propaganda lessons they got in the camps still doesnt make them worth to be crushed by the turkish army. Our families are in the mountains, if they joined the wrong movement or not, they are ours.

[tomjez]

Appologizes for this sentence...I had a hard week, and I realize it's a bit too much.

So much for the logical answers of Berxedan: still waiting for a justification of Holy Apo's attitude since 1999...